4:13 Podcast: Can I Get Unstuck in My Prayer Life? With Kyle DiRoberts [Episode 198]

Kyle DiRoberts: And we have to remember in prayer is that God is the one, the only one that gets to determine a prayer unanswered. Not you, not me, not anyone else. And so if God has not declared that prayer unanswered, then my suggestion is keep praying, because the Lord is doing something in your heart to draw you closer to himself in the midst of whatever it is that you're praying for.

K.C. Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you. Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, welcome. We're really glad you're with us. But guess what? We are not in the closet. K.C. and I are at a coffee shop, because for the summer we are getting out of the closet.

K.C. Wright: Yeah, we are.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. We're taking this thing on the road.

K.C. Wright: Woohoo!

Jennifer Rothschild: We are excited that we're not going to be in the closet for a while, so hope you get to do something in your life that's refreshing and fun. Today we're going to be talking about prayer. And I can't wait for us to talk about it, because let's just be honest here, everyone wants to know how to talk to God. And we want to know how to get answers to our prayers, but let's be honest, sometimes we just don't know how. Like, is there a secret to talking with God? So according to today's guest -- who is not with us in the coffee shop, by the way. We talked to him in studio. But according to him, there is a secret. And so today, author and professor Kyle DiRoberts is going to help you understand the impact of humility in your prayers. Right? And he's also going to give you practical ways to connect with God. So that's what we're going to be talking about today, and I can't wait for you to join us.

But before we get there, I got to talk with my friend K.C. --

K.C. Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- about what's been going on this summer. Now, I know a few months ago you lost your granny, and so I was thinking about this as we're surrounded by the fragrance of pastry in here. So you got to tell our friends about what happened when you were ushering your granny into heaven, what she said to you. It's one of the sweetest things ever.

K.C. Wright: Yes. My granny, by the way, was one of the greatest bakers and, oh, my goodness, pastry makers and -- there just wasn't anything she wasn't bad at. I mean, she was just gifted. But this quote reminds me so much of my G-Ma. I call her G-Ma because she was too cool to be "Grandma."

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. I like it.

K.C. Wright: So a buddy of mine called her G-Ma.

Jennifer Rothschild: it sounds very cool.

K.C. Wright: But here's a great quote that just is what I'm walking through right now. But it says, "Your absence has gone through me like thread through a needle. Everything I do is stitched with its color." And I thought it was so just significant that the day after she moved to heaven, every flower in my yard bloomed --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, K.C.

K.C. Wright: -- from the roses to the irises, everything. I just found that so significant.

Jennifer Rothschild: But tell them about the cannoli, because that --

K.C. Wright: I got to tell you about that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Because that's funny too. That shows so much of her personality.

K.C. Wright: So we are about ten minutes before she moves to heaven and I said, "G-Ma, you lived a good long life and Psalms 91 promises a good long life." I said, "You were here for 89 years." She passed away the day after her 89th birthday. And she said, "Holy cannoli." And so that turned into her telling me that she wanted a cannoli. She goes, "I want a cannoli." And then that went to, "I want a chocolate cannoli," and then that went into, "and cheesecake and a cup of coffee."

Jennifer Rothschild: I love it.

K.C. Wright: And literally she was making me and all of my aunts and the chaplains in the room -- she was doing comedy --

Jennifer Rothschild: Stand-up comedy?

K.C. Wright: -- making us laugh right before she entered the Kingdom of Joy, you know, the Kingdom of Light --

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

K.C. Wright: -- and so -- anyway...

As a matter of fact, just today my momma came over and this morning we sat down and had a cup of coffee. And I bought five cannolis and we ate some cannolis this morning in honor of my G-Ma --

Jennifer Rothschild: In honor of G-Ma?

K.C. Wright: -- with tears streaming down our face.

Jennifer Rothschild: K.C., that's so sweet.

K.C. Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's really sweet.

K.C. Wright: She was a gem. One in a million, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And to think that she is right now in the presence of the Lord, connecting with the Lord in a way that someday we all will. But the cool thing is is until then we can connect through prayer, and that's why we're talking about this today.

K.C. Wright: Let's do it.

Jennifer Rothschild: So why don't you introduce Kyle.

K.C. Wright: Dr. Kyle DiRoberts is Department Chair and Associate Professor of Biblical and Theological Studies at Arizona Christian University in Glendale, Arizona. He's a professor at Phoenix Seminary as well, and Director of the Minister in Residence and Internship programs at Scottsdale Bible Church. He is married to Lolly and the father of Kaden, Oliver, and Carson. Love all those names.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know, they're great.

K.C. Wright: And with any free time he may have, he hangs out with his wife and kids, his favorite people, going to Michael Buble' concerts --

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh, he's cool.

K.C. Wright: -- cooking, traveling, eating good food, and getting to coach his kids in golf and baseball.

So you're really going to like him and learn so much, so there's room at the table for you. Pull up a chair. Here's Kyle and Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Kyle, let's just start with some of the basics. All right? I am a believer. You're a believer. Most of us who are listening would call themselves Christian. But here's the thing, not all of us pray. And sometimes we avoid prayer, sometimes we forget to pray. So tell me why you think that is.

Kyle DiRoberts: Yeah. I think is -- and it gets to the heart of even why the book was written. Because I started to sense -- and even from my own experiences, but then started to sense just watching others and just living life with others, that there's this kind of like spiritual paralysis that sets in when it comes to prayer. And I was always like, why? Like, what's the big deal about this? Like, what's going on? And I think a lot of this is rooted in they think they need to sound like you when you pray and they think they need to sound like me when I pray, or like our pastor when they pray or -- you know, we have this prayer team at church and so we just rely on them to do the praying, or we watch people pray and then we think, wow, they just look as though -- with their posture and just their mannerisms, that they're just so holy, holier than us surely, and so then we just never -- we just never pray. We just leave it up to somebody else. I've even heard people say, "Well, that's just not my spiritual gift," as though that is a -- it is a gift from God to pray, but this is something we're all called to do.

And so then I began just to wonder, well, then what does this look like, then, for us to pray, and then ultimately this then led to this humility, this humility of the heart that God demands as we pray.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, and we're going to get into that, because I found that intriguing and inviting. And I think, though, what you did by laying this out for us, Kyle, is recognize that everyone listening right now identifies with this. I mean, you said it. When you were saying it, I identified with it. I'm like, yeah, I'm intimidated to pray in front of other people and I'm always not quite sure I'm hitting the mark. Am I doing it right, you know. And you're about to simplify this for us, and I'm looking forward to that.

But before we get there, I read something about you that I think also helps us see why prayer is so critical, and it is that you, I believe, experienced something as an adult child in that your parents got a divorce when you were in your thirties. And that happened to a friend of mine, and I watched her go through it, and it really affected her. I think sometimes we forget what adult children experience when their parents divorce. And so I am curious for you personally how that kind of difficult and maybe even bewildering experience affected your own prayer life.

Kyle DiRoberts: Yeah. And I think that's where a lot of the feedback I've gotten in these months after the book has been released is how just conversational and easy it is to read. And I think part of that is because this isn't coming from just academia, this isn't just coming from some ivory tower, but this is just coming from just the desperation of my own experiences of just needing to pray. Because, look, life is hard. It's trials, it's not -- James tells us not if, but when they occur. And so now we're kind of faced with in those moments to -- what are we going to do? And my hope is is that we pray.

For me, it was a lot of prayer and it was a lot of me filtering through throughout the course of my life, including academics, of saying, okay, hey, I was taught this about prayer and it just didn't work, or, hey, I was taught this about prayer and it was like fresh water on a hot Arizona summer day. I mean, you knew this is gold.

And so, yeah, a lot of these experiences that I've had, especially watching my folks go through a divorce -- I don't care if you're young or you're old, it's just weird. It's unnatural. And for me, a lot of that particular moment was I thought I had God on my side in terms of the answer to that prayer, because you're praying for divorce not to happen. I've got Bible verses that say God hates divorce, so I'm thinking this is a slam dunk. And then in the midst of that -- right? -- you're kind of going on these twists and turns spiritually and relationally with God, trying to figure out, well, what's going on, Lord? Why isn't this being answered? Why isn't this being answered in this time frame or in this way? And so there was a lot that God revealed about my own heart in the midst of that trying season, and then, yeah, I think that's hopefully what comes out on those pages.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, I think it does. And I think you just touched on something, that when we're praying, we think that there's got to be this secret to prayer, that if I do it a certain way or if I'm praying according to God's will, well, then it's a slam dunk. Yet what's interesting to me is the title of your book is "The Secret to Prayer." And that -- you know, that's quite a promise. So the secret to prayer, I think might surprise some of us. You've already alluded to it, but I want you to tell us, what is it? Spoiler alert. What is the secret to prayer?

Kyle DiRoberts: Spoiler alert. The secret to prayer is this: that humility is the soul of true prayer. That's the secret. So what God is most interested in, what God is most intently paying attention to isn't the posture of your body or even the very words that you're speaking, but he's paying attention to your heart. What kind of heart do you have when you pray? And I think when you find yourself in that place of humility before the Lord, that's when prayer comes to life as though you've never experienced before. And what's great about it is is it's your heart. It's not my heart, it's not your heart -- right? -- but it's that individual's heart as they are praying to say, okay, what kind of heart do I have? And then the heart becomes the very wordsmith which then produces the words that we pray. But we have to understand that what we're hearing is simply just a visible manifestation of a heart and what's being produced from the heart.

Jennifer Rothschild: Because God is truly listening to the heart.

Kyle DiRoberts: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So in your book, you show what this humble heart looks like through some men and women from the Bible who had these amazing prayer lives as a result of their humble hearts. So I'm very curious. I'd love for you to introduce us to one of them, especially one that may have personally deeply impacted you.

Kyle DiRoberts: Yeah, you know, I keep going back to this widow in Luke 18. So Jesus sets the stage that we might always pray and never lose heart. And getting to read about what Jesus actually does in just that sacred moment of prayer where he points to this widow. And this widow is described as browbeating. In the English, it talks about just was continually coming and bothering me. But in the Greek, it actually has this connotation of, like, a boxing match. And so this widow was having at it with this unrighteous judge, with her persistent bothering of him for justice against her adversary, and yet Jesus turns to the audience and says, "This is how I want you to talk to me. This is how I want you to pursue me in prayer."

And so it broke down all of these paradigms for me which always said, like, okay, well, if I pray once and if God doesn't answer, well, then surely it's not his will and so I'll just move on and I'll just accept this reality, it is what it is. And yet Jesus is actually saying the complete opposite. He's saying, no, keep at it, keep coming at me, and I can receive it. If this unrighteous judge will end up giving her what she needs and what she wants, how much more will God give to you who loves you?

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. All right. So that moves me into this thought, then, Professor. I've already introduced you, our people know that you are a professor, so let's get professorial here for just a second.

Kyle DiRoberts: This is when my wife typically zones out on me. She goes, "You just sound like a professor." I'm not going -- I don't understand it. I don't want to talk about this.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, see, I'm married to one, so I know how to deal with you people.

All right. But I think this is really going to be helpful to us, so I'm going to ask you two hard questions. All right? And most of us want to ask these questions, but sometimes we're afraid to ask these questions. So first question is this: If God really does -- or shall I say if -- not if, since. Since God knows everything, why in the world do we pray, then? What's the point?

Kyle DiRoberts: Yeah. Well, because -- I think the point is is because we don't know what God knows and we don't quite understand what God knows until it happens. And so until it happens, I would suggest to continue to pray as you get a front row view in seeing God's will unfold right before your eyes. And when it unfolds right before your eyes, you will then know in that moment this is the Lord's will. But until then, until God has revealed this to you sovereignly, you continue to pursue him. You continue to pursue justice against your adversary, right? You continue to approach him in prayer, and then eventually he will reveal that to you. But see, we on our vantage point, from our perspective -- because God knows everything and we know nothing. And you might be thinking, well, I know something. You're right, we do know something. But in light of what God knows, we know nothing.

Jennifer Rothschild: Nothing, yeah.

Kyle DiRoberts: And so since we know nothing, we approach God with this kind of a humble heart in prayer until God does reveal something to us, and then we can know that. And that might just be the next step, right? That might not be the conclusion, but it just might be the next step, which is all we need in that moment.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Kyle DiRoberts: And then you go to the next step, and then the next step, and then before you know it, you've lived a week and a month and a year and a life.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. I guess, too, as you do that, like the woman approaching the unjust judge, though we have a just and righteous judge, there is this connection to his heart that develops in the process. And it's almost a constant affirmation of I'm trusting you as the Sovereign Lord to do your thing and I am humbly coming to you as your servant and affirming through my perseverance that even though you know all things and I don't, it's still worth coming to you, because that's what you tell me to do. It's a very hard thing.

Kyle DiRoberts: Very well said.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's a hard thing, though, you know?

Kyle DiRoberts: Oh, it's very hard. And it's hard because it's progressive. It's supposed to be like theologically. We say God reveals himself progressively to us over time. So God doesn't reveal all of our sin to us at one time, God doesn't reveal all of his love to us all at one time, he progressively reveals this to us over our lifetime. But I think part of that is it maintains a relationship with a God who knows everything. He doesn't tell us everything, he doesn't give us everything, but he says, let's walk together.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Kyle DiRoberts: Let's do this together one step at a time.

You know, my youngest is just starting to walk, and he's just a train wreck because he takes -- you know, he just had more injuries from just walking. But what we do is we take one step at a time with him, and this is what the Lord does. Even though I can run, even though I know where we're going, even though I know all of these things, there's nothing more -- there's nothing that gives me greater joy and pleasure than just taking these little tiny baby steps with him. And I think this is an image of the Father.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, it is. That's a beautiful picture, actually.

All right. So, Professor, let's go to a second hard question here.

Kyle DiRoberts: Dun dun dun.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yep. That's what I think we needed.

Okay. What do you do then? So you've got this person who's come in and just persevering in prayer, connecting with the Father, humble heart, the whole nine yards, and there's no answered prayer that they can see. What does that person do? Well, why should I bother? God doesn't answer this prayer anyway.

Kyle DiRoberts: Yeah, that's a -- well, because we do have an option at that point. And it's a real option. And the option is to give up. The option is to just forego praying about that and the option is just to move on. And so while that is a viable option, I would prefer to keep going. And the reason why I would prefer you to keep going is because we don't know the Lord's will, we don't know what the end is. And so until it is final, until it is declared by God that it is unanswered, there's still chance, there's still hope. And we have to remember in prayer is that God is the one, the only one, that gets to determine a prayer unanswered. Not you, not me, not anyone else. And so if God has not declared that prayer unanswered, then my suggestion is keep praying because the Lord is doing something in your heart to draw you closer to himself in the midst of whatever it is that you're praying for.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Kyle DiRoberts: And then you're going to reach those realities where we're going to pray for someone and God -- they won't be healed and so they'll end up passing away. But in that moment, see, now we know we can no longer pray for healing because this life is over, unfortunately, and so we mourn and we grieve. But, see, up until that point, I think you just -- you continue to pray.

I remember this one gal came up to me after one of my teachings and she said, "Can I pray for your parents?" Because, you know, I use my life. For me, if you do theology, it's got to be -- it has to intersect with life or it's not theology. And so I was using what was going on in my life at that time, and she goes, "Can I pray for your parents?" And I bowed my head and I said yes. And in my head I was thinking, I don't want to pray for my parents right now, I already know they're going to get a divorce, but I can't be rude and reject prayer when you're teaching on prayer. So we're praying and I'm just kind of listening to her pray. And I'll never forget it. She says, "And, Jesus, we just ask that you would raise this dead marriage because you're in the business of raising dead things." And I remember I just kind of looked up at her and I said, oh, my gosh, she's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Kyle DiRoberts: She's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Kyle DiRoberts: And that put a whole new kind of wind at the sails of this particular prayer request and I began to pray for that again, even knowing where it was going and all of those things. But, see, I didn't know what God knew, and so I thought, okay, I'm going to pray for this. But I also began to pray for other things as a result of that as well, like comfort for me and my family. And God answered that richly and abundantly, and so that was wonderful. But, yeah, so this is probably how I respond to that question.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, and that's a good answer, too. And I love that the young woman who prayed for you -- I mean, it's interesting what she did, too. She kind of shifted the paradigm from the result to the character of God, that he's the one who raises dead things. And I think that is essential. Because you even say in your book that there's some essential truths about God that we have got to believe in order to have a vibrant prayer life. So what are some of those essential truths about God that we need to believe?

Kyle DiRoberts: Yeah. And this is all anchored in -- so, you now, one of the -- rule number one in life, you never call yourself humble, because if you call yourself humble, you're --

Jennifer Rothschild: You're not.

Kyle DiRoberts: -- automatically not humble and you're prideful. And I want to change that paradigm, darn it. Like, I want to look at humility differently. Because for me, humility is something that should be strived for each and every day, because this is what humility is. Humility is, at its core -- my definition would be that humility is knowing who God is in light of who we are. I mean, this is humility. Because what that does is it forces me and it puts me in a humble position before the Lord. Because if I know who God is, and yet I know who I am, I understand the difference between the Creator and the creature. So now I know God knows everything, and yet I know nothing. I know if I know who God is, that he is all powerful and I am not. I know that God is wisdom, is all wise, and yet I'm not. I know that God's ways are way better than my ways. I know that he's holy. And so what I want the reader -- what I'm challenging the reader to accept is this reality that this is who God is in light of who I am.

And then I use this example with Solomon. King Solomon. King Solomon ends up going -- in the middle of the night, God visits Solomon right after he had slaughtered a bunch of animals, which is kind of weird. And then God visits him and says, "Ask anything that you want, Solomon, I'm going to give it to you." I mean, and this is the moment where the genie comes out of the bottle. For me, it was Robin Williams. For my college students, it's Will Smith. And so the genie comes out of the bottle and then he says, "Okay, what do you want?" And Solomon's response, before he ever asks for anything, is he tells God who he is in light of who Solomon is. So Solomon says, "You fulfilled your promises to my father, you were good to him. You are king and you're the one that made me king over these people." And so he turns to God and he rightly acknowledges who God is. Well, then he turns around after that and then says, "And now I need wisdom. I need heavenly wisdom to lead your heavenly people, God." And then God says in response, "Because this was in your heart." Well, what was in Solomon's heart? Humility.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Kyle DiRoberts: And so for me, humility -- when I'm asking the reader to accept these certain truths about who God is, what I'm doing is -- by doing so, it's revealing the humility of your heart. Humble people say, "God, you know everything and I don't." And then humble people declare, "Your ways are better than my ways." Prideful people say, "God, I think I can contribute to this. I think I have the best way, the best time, and the best circumstances for this particular prayer to be answered." And so it serves as a way to ground and actually give us the ability to know if we're humble or not.

Jennifer Rothschild: Man, that is powerful. And I love the paradigm because it's very practical. You know, it's like a -- when we're prideful, we come to Jesus and say, "Here's my To Do list," but the humble heart just says, "Thy will be done. Because I know I'm not the King of the Universe, you are." That's so good, Kyle.

I read this statement by you. You wrote, "Somewhere between the humble heart of God and man resides the beauty, mystery, and conversation that we so desperately desire in prayer." I just love that statement, I really do. So here is my last question. What would you say to the listener who's, like, really become inspired here and they -- and maybe it's awakened in them in a little ache and a longing and they want to begin to really pray again, or start praying for the first time, but they're just not exactly sure what this looks like. We got it in the abstract with humility, but what does it look like in the concrete? What can they do when this podcast ends to begin a vibrant prayer life?

Kyle DiRoberts: So I think -- I'm thinking of my son's Thomas the Train underwear and I'm thinking of him beginning the process of potty training. And I'll never forget, Lolly knows our kids so well, and she just knows their hearts, and I learn so much from her as a result of that. And so she always -- with this particular child, you just kind of -- you give him a heads-up. So, "Buddy, we think you're ready to potty train. Let us know when you're ready." And then, sure enough, he came to us one day and says, "Okay, I'm ready to try it." And so we give him his big boy undies. I'm thinking this is not going to go well, Lolly has all the confidence in the world, and so we go to bed. And we wake up in the morning and no accidents. So this goes on for a few weeks. No accidents. So I'm thinking this is pretty sweet. Then one night the door -- right? -- opens slowly and he walks in, really as though he'd probably contemplated, like, I'm going to wear diapers for the rest of my life, because he'd had an accident. And he apologized to us and we're like, "Buddy, no. We knew you were going to do this, we just didn't know when." And so what we did was we cleaned everything up -- right? -- we get him a fresh pair, and then he goes back to sleep for the night.

The listener, I want them to pray and I want them to know that God wants them to pray right now, often. But what I also want the listener to do, though, is is when you take up the task of talking to God, especially if we know who God is in light of who we are, there might be moments in which it feels awkward at first and for a while. And you might feel as though you have not succeeded at first or for a while, but my encouragement would be don't give up. Just keep at it and just keep with it. And over time you're going to learn how to speak to God from your words -- not from mine or from anyone else's, but from your words -- so you'll grow more comfortable over time. But it just will take some time. And I just don't want you to bail or quit on it just because it didn't feel right right away.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's so good. We're not wearing spiritual diapers our whole life just because we don't do it right one time.

Kyle DiRoberts: Absolutely not, no.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Good word.

K.C. Wright: Way to bring it home, Jennifer. Spiritual diapers? Well said, though I couldn't stop laughing when I actually heard you. I thought, did she just say "spiritual diapers"?

Jennifer Rothschild: "Spiritual diapers?" Yeah.

K.C. Wright: I think she just said "spiritual diapers."

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, it did -- it fit at the moment. Okay?

K.C. Wright: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: But we all got the point, right?

K.C. Wright: Right?

Jennifer Rothschild: I mean, just because you don't get it right does not mean you've got the whole thing wrong. And we got to pay attention to that because God does want us to pray. And I love that humility is what God is looking for when it comes to our prayers.

K.C. Wright: God does give grace to the humble. So let's pray with a heart of humility, our 4:13ers.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

K.C. Wright: You need to check out his book as well. It's called "The Secrets of Prayer." The title alone wants me to -- I want to read it today, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Just for that, right?

K.C. Wright: Yeah. We will have a link to it on the show notes, by the way, at 413podcast.com/198. It's a 30-day devotional called "The Secrets of Prayer," and it's so doable.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, so doable. And, by the way, you know that we'll have some highlights and a transcript from this conversation on the show notes also at 413podcast.com/198.

All right, our people, we're going to finish up our coffee here. And I want you to remember as you go through your week that you don't ever forget you can pray with humility, because you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

K.C. Wright: I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: And you can.

K.C. Wright: Hey, what are you drinking there?

Jennifer Rothschild: Mine is a double tall extra hot breve latte.

K.C. Wright: Ooh, nice.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

K.C. Wright: I'm having a cinnamon dolce latte, skinny, venti, extra hot, extra sprinkles.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know it's a dollar an adjective, right?