4:13 Podcast: Can I Uncover the Purpose of an Unexpected Season? With Nicole Unice [Episode 316]

Nicole Unice: Those invitations are available to every single one of us, but we will not realize them without embracing and expecting that we will have not-what-I-signed-up-for seasons where God is growing something essential in our souls, that we will have to reckon with grief and loss as a part of our story -- disappointment, loss, and grief are all in a category that we try to avoid. We will have to engage that -- and that we will learn to be present even in trouble and even in suffering, because that's where we experience the goodness and the glory of God.

Jennifer Rothschild: Have you ever found yourself in an unexpected season where you're struggling with uncertainty or an unknown future? And maybe you're even thinking to yourself, and perhaps even saying to God, this is not what I signed up for. On this episode of The 4:13, counselor and Bible teacher Nicole Unice is going to help you if you feel that way, maybe confused or over your head. She's going to help you see that maybe it's life's twists and turns and the in-between spaces that God is actually using to grow something essential in your soul.

So today we are going to learn how to move forward when every choice feels hard. So what are we waiting for? Let's do it.

K.C. Wright: Let's go. Welcome, welcome to the 4:13 Podcast -- we're so glad you're here -- where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you and I up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, my (singing) soul sister --

Jennifer Rothschild: (Singing) Soul sister.

K.C. Wright: -- Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, that's my brother K.C.

K.C. Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: K.C., who is always Wright, literally.

K.C. Wright: Fake news.

Jennifer Rothschild: And it is just two friends, one topic, and zero stress here in the podcast closet. I hope you've had a good week. We're so happy you're with us. Our goal is just to help you as the Lord is helping us to just be and do all that God has created us to be. And sometimes it is far more than we feel capable of, but we do it through his power in us. That's the 4:13 life right there.

And so today we're going to talk about doing hard things and when every choice feels hard, how to keep moving forward. So I hope you're ready for a good conversation.

K.C. Wright: Hey, I got to tell you something. I know you're writing a book about heaven.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

K.C. Wright: I almost went there the other day.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh.

K.C. Wright: I did. I have to tell you what happened real quick.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, tell me what happened.

K.C. Wright: So as you, my 4:13 family, know, I've been on this CrossFit kick. I'm trying to kill the dad bod.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know you're -- you have been with it so long. I'm so proud of you.

K.C. Wright: Operation Kill Santa, Birth Captain America.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

K.C. Wright: Well, what happened is around the holidays, the new year, I not only fell off the wagon, but the wagon went over the cliff in a blaze of fire. It was too many trips to Costco and me finding this jalapeno cranberry dip and eating buckets of it with pretzels, and me emotionally eating from Costco trips, and I just -- so what happened was is I said enough is enough, I got to get back in, and so I went back to CrossFit after being out for a while.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, okay, gotcha.

K.C. Wright: But I went to CrossFit that morning with nothing on my stomach but an energy drink and coffee --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, K.C.

K.C. Wright: -- and it was an intense workout. And if I reached a certain thing on the bike, I didn't have to do these sandbags and these pull-ups and all this stuff. So what happened was is I went hard, harder than normal after being out. And I get done, I beat the clock, I did it, but all of a sudden the entire room started getting dark --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, K.C.

K.C. Wright: -- and dark and dark. And all of a sudden, I sat down and my friend Nick, he was fading. He was fading. And I could hear him say, "K.C., K.C., K.C., you're white. K.C., K.C." And I was gone. I passed out.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh my gosh, K.C.

K.C. Wright: And so I woke up and he had grabbed some kind of orange drink that was filled with sugar. And I was swigging this thing and I saw light, light, light, light, and I came back.

Jennifer Rothschild: Gosh.

K.C. Wright: But I thought I was going. I thought, well, this is how I'm going. I'm about to see my grandma and all my dogs, and I'm going to miss Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: But you get to see Jesus, so I think it's a good trade-off.

Okay, but I'm so glad -- and all this can be prevented by eating next time.

K.C. Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay?

K.C. Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: All the mamas out there are screaming, "K.C., eat breakfast."

K.C. Wright: So he said, "Bro, remember, you can't come without your nanner." You got to eat your nanner before you come.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Get some good starch and carbs.

K.C. Wright: You got to shove down a Rice Krispie treat. You got to have a carb. Because what happened was is I burn up all my glucose.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, you did.

K.C. Wright: And then instead of walking the gym, I sat down and I went out.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, bless you.

K.C. Wright: But they were laughing at me, because I guess --

Jennifer Rothschild: Once they knew you were going to be okay.

K.C. Wright: -- this happens a lot.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, really?

K.C. Wright: Yeah, this happens a lot.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

K.C. Wright: You've got to eat before you do a workout.

Jennifer Rothschild: You do.

K.C. Wright: Who knew?

Jennifer Rothschild: And I think sometimes it's a man thing, because women are like -- we're all so reasonable and planned, and men are like, "I've got this," and then -- yeah, then that happens.

K.C. Wright: So that was scary, and I almost saw the place that you're writing about.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Well, thank you for the little soft promotion there. Yes, my friends, I am writing on heaven, and the book will be out in January of 2025.

K.C. Wright: So exciting.

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm so thankful for it. The Lord has really -- I think it's going to be -- you're going to learn a lot, but you're going to unlearnt a lot about heaven.

K.C. Wright: Really?

Jennifer Rothschild: And I'll tell you more about it in the next couple of months. But, yeah, get ready. But, K.C., don't go there before the book comes out, please. Okay?

K.C. Wright: No, no. Listen, no one's going.

Jennifer Rothschild: No one's going.

K.C. Wright: No one's dying on my watch. With a long life, Psalms 91 says, "I will satisfy you and show you my salvation."

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

K.C. Wright: But you know what? I've been thinking about heaven a lot, because in the month of January of this year, a lot of people I knew went home. And I'm thinking, man, heaven's a revolving door. So you've been thinking about it, and I've been thinking about it, and so I'm so thankful for this book.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, it is our reality, y'all. It is our reality. And it's not like it's a bad alternative.

K.C. Wright: No.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I think once we're there, we'll realize, oh, my gosh, why did I try to cling so fiercely to earth? I mean, I just -- it's beyond what we can even imagine. But I think to try to imagine the joy of just being in the presence of the Lord without the drain and strain that living in a sinful world and a mortal body brings, it's just beyond what we can imagine. So, mmm, I'm telling you.

K.C. Wright: And people are the only things you can bring to heaven.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah.

K.C. Wright: You never saw a hearse pulling a U-Haul, so that's why we're doing this 4:13, so we can reach one more for Jesus.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen, one more time.

K.C. Wright: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, so let's let Nicole help us do that. Why don't we introduce her.

K.C. Wright: Nicole Unice is a pastor, leadership coach, and speaker. She's the author of several books focused on spiritual transformation and is a featured speaker through RightNow Media and Punchline. Nicole and her husband, Dave, live in Richmond, Virginia, with their three children and two pups. So lean on back, listen up, here's Jennifer and Nicole.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Nicole. I'm very glad we get to talk about your book, because I like the title. The title is "Not What I Signed Up For." And I kind of laughed when I read that, because I thought we can all relate to that phrase, you know, for all different reasons. Those who are listening have different reasons that they have that phrase.

So here's the question, then. Why did you choose that title? Or maybe I should just ask it this way. What did you not sign up for?

Nicole Unice: Oh, my goodness, so many things. Yeah, so I chose this title because I was coming into a season of transition and was going through some changes in life. And I've been through lots of seasons of transition, like most women that I know. You know, you move through seasons and life stages and all of that, but this one was particularly difficult because it felt like an uncertain and an unexpected season with an unknown timeline. And something about that mix of uncertainty mixed with unknown timeline just really rattled me to the core as far as what I believed about myself, what I believe about God, what I believe about seasons like that.

And I remember having visceral moments where I really -- the deepest part of me, the rebellious middle schooler still inside was like, this is not what I -- like, God, I'm following you, and this is not what I signed up for. Like, this is not it. And really sensing that deep sense of discontent. But also probably more than discontent, maybe disturbed. Like, how do I do this? I feel lost, I feel disoriented. God, where are you in this?

And so that went on for a period of years. And so out of that came one of my most favorite moments of really connecting with a story from Scripture, and that story is the story of Joseph in the Book of Genesis, a story that I often think is -- he's kind of created as a hero character in the Bible. Not that he's not. But without looking more closely, you can miss the richness of the fact that Joseph is our quintessential not-what-I-signed-up-for season.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, so let's do that. So let's look at his story. Not the hero aspect, but those nitty-gritties like -- so as you're going through this unexpected season -- by the way, I love how you added to that with an unknown timetable. Because I think sometimes, Nicole, we can deal with an unexpected season if we know it has a shelf life. But when we don't know what the shelf life is, oh, my goodness, the fatigue and the uncertainty can wear us out.

So what was it about Joseph's story that really spoke into your story and helped you get through?

Nicole Unice: Oh, yeah. I mean, there's actually so many elements of -- you know, a lot of us know sort of the broad brush of the story of Joseph. Maybe we've heard it in Sunday school or we've watched a Disney movie or -- but we maybe haven't read it in a while really closely. And so within -- there's several components within the story that really get me. One of them is the amount of time. And we read the story -- and, in fact, there's this one moment in the story where it seems like Joseph is going to be vindicated. So he's got all of these experiences that he's having. He's really living pretty righteously, which is an important part of it too. I think that one of the things that happens in not-what-I-signed-up-for seasons is we begin to blame ourselves and we ask, What did I do? Where did I go wrong to get myself to this position? And I think it's really important that we do have stories where, like, Joseph -- I mean, he wasn't perfect, you know, but that wasn't the story. The reason he was in unexpected and difficult circumstances was not because he did something wrong. It's because God had a plan that he was activating, that he was operating in, that Joseph had to operate in trust, that that's what he was doing.

So there's this moment in the Joseph story where he is now in the king's prison. He's been unjustly imprisoned. He's there for a while. And two of the king's servants are also in prison. They have dreams. Joseph rightly interprets the dreams, and then -- and I love this moment because it's so human -- he stops them and says, When you are restored -- he says to the cupbearer who's going to be restored, When you're restored, don't forget about me. I am suffering and I am here unjustly. So he is honest. He's honest about his experience and he asks for help. And then there's this little -- and it's where a chapter crosses over to a new chapter. And the end of the chapter says, "The cupbearer, however, forgot all about him." And the next line is, "When two full years had passed."

And so I think a lot of times we read stories, all kinds of stories, Bible stories, and we know the ending. And so we don't slow down to remember that Joseph went to sleep with hope that this was going to be the end of a really difficult, tragic part of his life every night over and over again for two full years before the next part of the story happens. And there's details like that all throughout this story that are so captivating, so emotional, so many places for us to engage. Like, what is it like for me when I think the story is turning and it doesn't turn? What does that do to my relationship with God? How do I understand how to move through life when I'm living with disappointment, when things I think are going to turn and then they don't turn, things last longer than I wanted them to last, especially in our, like, microwave instant culture.

So that's just one example of so many within the story that we sort of dive in and find the treasures and compare to our own stories and find what God has for us there.

Jennifer Rothschild: So how do we, Nicole -- so when we have those Joseph moments or seasons, which was -- in this small example, it was two years. But two years feels like an eternity. So what do you do if you're the one who is in your own emotional prison or relational -- you know what I mean? Just something that's just unexpected season that's bad and you feel forgotten, how do you remain faithful in those seasons and not just give up and say, okay, forget it?

Nicole Unice: You know, first of all, I've given up so many times and said, Forget it. I think that's part of our human experience, I think that's part of the wrestling that happens in seasons like this. And one of the things we talk about in "Not What I Signed Up For" is this idea of testing. Which is just such a strange word for us because we're like, Is God, like, some sort of, you know, power hungry, like, 10th grade English teacher who wants to prove to us that we're not who we thought we were and we're failing every test that we're given? And I think we have to reframe what a test is and the idea that testing -- times where things don't go our way, times where it feels like God's far away, times where it feels dark, testing only reveals what is already inside of us. It doesn't change -- it's a way to know what's already there. And in my own unexpected season, times where I was disappointed with God, times where I felt forgotten, times where I felt lost, it was exposing lies that I believed. It was exposing deep beliefs that I had about what does it mean to have a good life in this world and how do I understand who God is.

So a lot of times when we go through seasons like this, as difficult as it is and as deeply troubling as it is, the things that we might not have known, that we really believe about ourselves, about God, about the world, they start to come to the surface. And when they come to the surface, we have a Heavenly Father and a Holy Spirit, our Comforter, our Encourager, who's there to meet us with the truth. That is a painful process that I would never sign up for. But like I've heard from so many women that I spoke with as I wrote this book, you would never sign up for it, but you're so grateful for the fruit after. And I think we've got to hold that tension together, that we can lament and hold the reality that we're disappointed, that things are difficult, that it's hard, while still understanding that there can be fruit that is being cultivated in this season that we truly would not be able to experience or enjoy without the difficulties that we're in.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. And it's slow-growing fruit, so we have to be patient with the process.

And, Nicole, you are a counselor. So for that woman who -- she's really relating to what you're talking about and she's feeling the lament and -- and so, yes, there is a revelation of self that's coming up during this difficult waiting season. But, ooh, she don't like what she sees, she feels uncomfortable with it. She's afraid that if she opens the lid, that she'll never get the lid back on. How does a woman honestly live through this season so that there's actually growth and not just greater repression that leads to, you know, worse depression or whatever?

Nicole Unice: Yeah. Such a good question, Jennifer. And I'm sure you've been through times like this, too, and walked alongside people who've been through this. It's an interesting -- especially the first time that someone maybe really confronts their own shadow, really confronts their own pain. Maybe they've found lots of different ways to cope and process their pain that hasn't actually been in full reality, full honesty. And it's super scary. So what you said about, oh, what about the woman who's afraid to open that can of worms or open that closet door in her soul and everything's going to fall out of it? And, you know, I've spoken -- obviously in counseling, I've spent so much time in a therapeutic space where it's like, I know you feel like if you start crying, you'll never stop, but there will be a stop. And you're showing your true self. And if you can bring your full self, the weak, the vulnerable, the angry, the scared, the disappointed, if you could bring your full self before the Lord, he is a God who heals. He desires to comfort and encourage.

And I think so many times, one of the reasons that we really struggle to experience God is that we are not even allowing ourselves to be honest with ourself. We're not being our full expression of, like, I am desperate for you, Lord, I am so -- I don't know that I can make it through this hour, I don't know that I can make it through this day. Would you meet me with your presence. And that is a prayer, I believe, that God answers.

You know, it says in Scripture, "If you seek me, you will find me if you seek me with your whole heart." And so there is a courageous journey to be taken, which is to bring our whole selves, even the parts that we do not find attractive, even the parts that we wish were not a part of us, to bring those things before our Heavenly Father, who desires to have us be found, to fully understand what that feels like and to know that love.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. And he's safe. He really is, isn't he, Nicole? That's what you just described, a God who is safe. He is.

And I think in your book, as you're tracing the story of Joseph, he remained faithful to God even when he had to face all those difficult emotions. And he never just decided, well, hard equals quit. He remained faithful. And I do think that when we are able to do that too, you know, it -- through God's grace, when we're able to remain faithful, we do see the faithfulness of God.

You know, though, it often feels like just our very world around us, like, the culture we live in, is this huge not-what-we-signed-up-for season. Okay? I mean, like, seriously, sometimes we're like, really, is this happening in our generation? So I'm curious how Joseph's story also could help us with this unexpected unrest of the culture we live in.

Nicole Unice: Absolutely. I mean, I think -- I didn't even know when I started this project how much I would resonate with that component of who Joseph is. You know, Joseph is carried off from his people. He is in Egypt; he is not in his homeland. He's not with people who know his religion, his customs, his language. He is completely taken out of the context in which he grew, which was, you know, a very safe, favored place that we find in his early story.

So there is something to be said about how are we Christians -- how do we shine our light in an increasingly dark world? And we may feel very disconcerted about that because we might think that the world has let us down. And the reality is the world was always going to let us down. It's our Father God who's not going to let us down. It's the Kingdom of Heaven that's not going to let us down.

One of the really cool things about Joseph that it says it repeatedly. So what we know about Joseph is even though he was faithful, he was also completely honest about his suffering. There's so much crying in Joseph's story, which I really appreciate. We have a whole chapter about trusting our tears, trusting in lament. So he's completely faithful, but he's completely real about the fact that he's suffering.

And then here's the other thing. God continues to call Joseph blessed over and over again. I mean, I will go on record, the circumstances are not ones in which we would call ourselves blessed. Never. They're just not. And it says that God was with him and he prospered, and the people around him prospered. So we have to wrestle with this idea that we can be believers in a dark world where God will do good through us, and actually people around us who may not worship God, who may not believe the same as us, who may not even think that they might experience goodness in their life because you're in their life. Like, that's a way different way, I think, to experience or to maybe process our culture or process this moment and ask ourselves the question, what if the job that I have is not to prove myself right, my job is not to warn every -- scare everybody with my own fear, it's what if my job is to show up as a light in an increasingly dark world, believing that God is doing something in and through the way that he's blessing others through me. That changes to me everything about our perspective in this moment.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh. Okay, that's so good. And by the way, there's one statement you said that I just have to repeat: scaring others with our own fear.

Nicole Unice: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, somebody needs to sit with that for a minute. Because that's what we do.

Nicole Unice: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And what a great paradigm shift that is, Nicole.

And then, of course, yes, the people -- the Israelis were saved in the famine because of Joseph's --

Nicole Unice: That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- how God used Joseph in a season that he probably did not enjoy for whatever it was. What, 13 years?

Nicole Unice: Well, I mean, 13 years is just the first part. So it's 13 years from when he is enslaved. And then we've got about 11 years until the cupbearer and the baker, then we get that two-year part that I told you about.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my goodness.

Nicole Unice: It's going to be another ten years before he sees his brothers.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Nicole Unice: So this is a long story. And that's part of the reason I wanted to bring it to our attention.

The other thing is about the Old Testament. And the New as well. But the Old Testament is full of narrative. Many, many righteous people are operating in dark and evil cultures. And so if you need some encouragement that God hasn't forgotten about us, and it doesn't -- even if Jesus is about to come back, we are still supposed to operate as lights in a dark world. Like, there is a lot of places to grab on. I mean, Joseph is operating -- he is a powerful figure of strategic leadership in a dark culture. Like, he didn't stop and say, Hey, Pharaoh, before I take this job, I just need you to know. Like, he didn't. He just was like, Hey, I have what I have because of God within me.

And I've been operating actually some in the marketplace in a new assignment that was very unexpected, and in that new assignment I've been with some very, very powerful people in financial markets. And to see believers operating in those places, very clear about their faith, very clear about who they are, and operating ethically and with generosity, I'm so inspired to say, Hey, don't give up on what God is doing, even if this is not the story, especially in America, that you were expecting. Don't give up on what God is doing in you and through you, because he is still operating and he is sovereign. He knows what he's doing.

And the story of Joseph actually shows that to a T, you know. I mean, the reason Joseph was there for two years, quote/unquote, forgotten -- it says everyone knew exactly where Joseph was when Pharaoh had a dream that no one could interpret.

Jennifer Rothschild: Interesting.

Nicole Unice: They didn't lose track of the Hebrew slave that they had let out of prison, because he was still in prison. He was exactly where he needed to be for the moment that God ordained. He did not know that for the two years of disappointment after he was forgotten about. You know, but we know. We know the story that God was intricately, intentionally working. And if only we had the faith, just continue to have the faith to believe that that's true for us as well.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, and someday you'll look back at your story, you'll look in the rear-view mirror, and it will make sense.

Nicole Unice: Absolutely.

Jennifer Rothschild: Faith is the evidence of that which is not seen. So we just remain faithful.

But I want to circle back to something that you said, because you mentioned it in your book. You explain how deeply Joseph felt his emotions. Because, like, he could feel grief over his past and what he had lost. But he also, even in the midst of the difficulty, felt the blessing of his present all at once, like, all at the same time. So what does it look like for us to have a heart that can hold both joy and sorrow, grief and gratefulness, all that at the very same time? How do we manage those tensions?

Nicole Unice: Well, I love this question, Jennifer. And I think there is a myriad of ways -- right? -- that we manage those tensions. And I start the book and the Bible study in the same way, where I invite everyone to a gentle journey. Because to be a woman or a man with the kind of depth of your soul, that you can make space in your heart for hard things and good things, that you can have a day of the life where you could wake up disappointed and in tears and also experience the goodness of God in that same day, like, that takes an expanded heart and it takes a full soul. It is not something that you are going to experience, you know, in a one-minute Instagram reel. It is the real depth of humanity.

And I think that God is inviting us as followers of him to be people who are real enough and expansive enough in our heart that we actually create places where people feel safe to also be human, to also experience that. But it's a rigorous -- and I'm not going to lie, it's a rigorous journey. It's a journey of care and compassion. It means that I'm serious about my disciplines with the way I spend time with God, I probably am very serious about the way I experience silence and solitude. I might need to be very gentle with myself about practices in my life, whether that's gardening or baking or writing or serving or things that help me feel human, that it's okay to have all of those things. And we talk a lot about those different aspects in the book.

But one thing about Joseph -- you know, in the book we really start at the end. We call it a Joseph blessing from Genesis 50:20, where we see Joseph sort of talk about his whole previous life in the context of what you intended for evil, God used for good. And he starts that verse by saying, "Do not be afraid. Am I in the place of God? What you intended for evil, God used for good." And think about those three promises. That because of God, we don't have to be afraid; because we're not God, we can trust and be humble about what we do know and what we don't know; and God is writing a story where he redeems all things and reconciles all things. And we get to be a part of that story, which is a place where we experience forgiveness, where we experience the ability to hold together nuance and tension and say, I don't like how this thing is going, but I can also trust that God is at work. It creates a human experience instead of a binary black-and-white, fast-forward, fast-moving experience. It requires us to slow down and be our full selves. I don't know if that makes sense, but that's how I see it.

Jennifer Rothschild: It makes total sense. And it's such a -- actually a very grace-filled encouragement. Because you're not presenting a formula, you're presenting the wholeness of humanity and saying it's okay. It's going to be a wonky process, you're going to feel wobbly and uncomfortable, and you may be the one walking with someone and you might feel uncomfortable with their emotions. Let's all just press in and feel uncomfortable and be real about it, you know. It's okay.

Nicole Unice: Yeah. And then you ask, why do I feel uncomfortable with this person's emotion?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Nicole Unice: Why am I so unsettled that I can't solve their problem for them? Why am I so -- why is it so hard for me to allow someone to be uncomfortable? Is it possibly because it's so hard for me to be uncomfortable? Like, this is what testing does. You know, this is what happens, is it exposes ways that God is inviting you to grow. And what a beautiful promise that we never stop growing. I mean, if we can embrace that, like, oh, this is an adventure, life is an adventure, and I don't finish growing. God is constantly inviting me to deeper places. And, yeah, sometimes it's painful and uncomfortable, but it can be beautiful and good and used for his glory.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Because that which stops growing is really beginning to die --

Nicole Unice: That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and become ischemic, so -- I mean, it's just a beautiful thought.

And I think it was Alicia Britt Chole, an author.

Nicole Unice: Love her.

Jennifer Rothschild: I think she said -- I'm not going to get the quote right, but I just want to attribute the sentiment to her. She said what God reveals, he heals.

Nicole Unice: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: So if there's something being revealed, we don't need to feel afraid, we just need to know that's part of the growth and the healing. I'm just saying, Nicole, this is so good. Y'all need to get her book, and we're going to tell you how after this conversation. But I'm going to get to our last question because -- wow, it's just good stuff.

Okay. So, Nicole, in Chapter 7 of your book, you talk about kairos moments. Okay, so I want you to tell us what that word actually means, tell us what a kairos moment is, and why it matters and how we can begin to experience those.

Nicole Unice: One of my favorite questions. Thanks, Jennifer. I love this. I love this, like, discovery that I made when I was teaching, actually, the story of Joseph to a group several years ago. I was kind of, like, looking into some things. And this idea occurs all through Scripture. So what we need to know is we have one word for "time." We have one word in the English for "time." But in the Greek, there's two words. And the two words are "Chronos," which is where we get, like, chronology or a chronometer, like a stopwatch. So Chronos is linear time beginning to end. Chronos is the day you were born and the day you die.

But there's another word in the Greek, and that word is "kairos." And the word "kairos" to me, it sort of means a moment of opportunity. And when I think of what kairos moments look like, normally they're best experienced in the rear view. A lot of times we don't understand that it was a kairos moment until we look back. But I think of a kairos moment as, like, a Polaroid picture coming into focus. That you're able to look back -- and so many of us have this, which is just a beautiful expression of the fact that we were not made for time, that our souls are immortal, and outside of time is the fact that you can -- probably right now, Jennifer, you can probably think of a moment in time in your life that feels like a Polaroid picture, where it's as if no time has passed. So you could put yourself back in that moment. And we were even -- you and I were both talking about conversations we've had with amazing saints, women who've gone before us. And I bet you can put yourself back in that moment, and it's in looking back at it that you realize, I was in a moment of opportunity. It was a spiritual moment where God did something, and I've got these moments in my life.

And the idea that in Joseph's story, there's all these kairos moments. He doesn't necessarily know that it was by design that he was kept in that prison. He doesn't know that it's by design that because he was a great leader in -- you know, he was a great leader in Potiphar's house, he was a great leader in the prison. It's because he had those experiences that when he is in front of Pharaoh, he is able to say, Hey, man, I've got a plan for you. I know what you could do. Because he had become a strategic leader.

All of these kairos moments exist in all of our stories. And I actually think that most of the time, we don't believe big enough about what God's doing in our life to actually believe that those moments matter so deeply. But we all have them, and we show up for them by being present to our life. We show up by being faithful. We show up by just continuing to be obedient. And normally when we look back, we're like, oh, my goodness, that conversation really mattered. I had no idea that this was going to be so significant in my life. Or that moment when I extended grace and hospitality to that person, it really mattered. I had no idea that it was going to be so important for our life.

And those invitations are available to every single one of us, but we will not realize them without embracing and expecting that we will have not-what-I-signed-up-for seasons where God is growing something essential in our souls, that we will have to reckon with grief and loss as a part of our story -- disappointment, loss, and grief are all in a category that we try to avoid. We will have to engage that -- and that we will learn to be present even in trouble and even in suffering, because that's where we experience the goodness and the glory of God. And that's really a lot, but that's really the whole thing. The whole thing, the whole earthly life is about to me, is these moments where God breaks in and says, I am real, I care about you, I love you. I'm intentional with my actions and I'm inviting you to be in relationship, to be in communion with me while we walk through this life together.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, our friends, he will walk with you through every unexpected season. So be present, be faithful, and be obedient. You will look back, and you're going to see how every single thing mattered.

K.C. Wright: I love how she explained the -- what moments? What were they called?

Jennifer Rothschild: Kairos.

K.C. Wright: Oh, my goodness.

Jennifer Rothschild: Kairos moments.

K.C. Wright: Yes. These moments are by design even if they don't make sense at the moment. These moments are in all our stories. We need to believe big enough because we serve an Ephesians 3:20 God who does exceedingly abundantly above all that we can ask or think. So let's embrace and expect that God is growing something essential within our souls.

Well, clearly, we need this book. I need this book. You need this book.

Jennifer Rothschild: Everybody needs the book.

K.C. Wright: So we're giving one away. Go to Jennifer's Insta right now @jennrothschild to enter to win. And go to the Show Notes at 413podcast.com/316 to read the full transcript of this amazing conversation. Plus, we'll have a link there for you to buy Nicole's books so you don't have to wait to find out if you won it, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Good.

K.C. Wright: So this one's a wrap. Until next week, remember, whatever you face, however you feel, you can do all things through Jesus Christ, our Risen Lord, who gives you supernatural strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

Jennifer and K.C.: And you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh, I like that you called him our Risen Lord. He is. He is the resurrection, he is the life.

K.C. Wright: He's alive.

Jennifer Rothschild: Those who believe in him, though they die, yet shall they live.

K.C. Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And all the people said.

K.C. Wright: Amen.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.