4:13 Podcast: Can I Submit and Still Hold On to My Power as a Woman? With Dr. Juli Slattery [Episode 209]

Dr. Juli Slattery: And so both the woman who's building and tearing down has power. But how she using that power? And so submission is God's teaching me to harness that power in a way that builds my house instead of tearing it down.

Jennifer Rothschild: What do you do if your husband won't get a job? Or what do you do if you don't like the way he's parenting the kids? And, like, how do you know when to stand up to a controlling husband, or how do you know if you have become a controlling wife? I'm just saying, we are tackling some hard stuff today on the 4:13. Lots of women feel lost in their marriages. They don't know what to do with their disappointment, when to ask for help, or what it looks like to let go of the need to control.

Today psychologist Dr. Juli Slattery is going to gently guide women to see how their attempts to fix the messiness of marriage may actually undermine what they're trying to build. This is some straight talk to the sisters today, so let's hit it.

K.C. Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, hello, our friends. Jennifer here just to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you live this "I Can" life of Philippians 4:13. It is two friends, one topic, and zero stress --

K.C. Wright: Zero.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- yet some of you saw the title and your stress level went up.

K.C. Wright: Just the intro. Oh, boy.

Jennifer Rothschild: I get it. Okay, so here's the thing. K.C. and I ain't going to touch this. We ain't going to talk about this.

K.C. Wright: No. I'm out.

Jennifer Rothschild: We are going to let the professional handle it, because we do not talk about the S word.

K.C. Wright: Bring in the doctor.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. No submission talk between me and K.C.

Okay. But seriously, this was a great conversation. So do not be nervous if "submission" is a yucky word for you. In fact, I began my first question, I call it the S word. So don't be nervous. You are going to get free and feel empowered and love how Juli Slattery explains this concept of how to function well and use your power, ladies, well in marriage.

So, K.C., let's introduce the good doctor.

K.C. Wright: Dr. Juli Slattery is a clinical psychologist, author, speaker, and broadcast media professional. She's the president and cofounder of Authentic Intimacy, and in 2020 Juli launched sexualdiscipleship.com. That is a platform designed to help Christian leaders navigate sexual issues with the Gospel-centered truth. She's also the host of the Java with Juli Podcast. That just sounds so much fun, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: I know.

K.C. Wright: Now, pour your coffee and have some java with Juli and Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Juli, we're going to start with the big S word, submission.

Dr. Juli Slattery: Diving into the deep end.

Jennifer Rothschild: We're diving right in. Because it is -- for a lot of women, it's like a cringe word. You know, it's tough, it's tender, it's controversial. But here you are writing a whole chapter on submission in your book. And I know for me, there's some subjects I would rather just like, okay, well, I'll let someone else deal with it, but you dealt with it. Okay? So tell me why you decided to tackle it. Why'd you write about it?

Dr. Juli Slattery: Well, I would actually say in some ways the whole book is about that topic, not just one chapter. But the whole book is really fleshing out this idea that -- and I know we're going to get into this more -- but that women have a lot of relational power in marriage, and submission is the way that God is training us how to use that power well.

Jennifer Rothschild: So, Juli, though, it's interesting, because what I just heard you kind of say quickly, I think might be referring to what your definition of submission is. Because I think it's a little different from what most of us have understood and what we've read even in a lot of Christian books. You mentioned something about power. So tell me what your definition of submission is.

Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah. My definition of submission would be that God is showing us how to accentuate and use our power in a way that builds intimacy, that calls forth the hero in our husband essentially. That idea that we have strength and he doesn't want us to bury that strength. He gave it to us, but he gave it to us for a purpose. And if I could summarize it, really I think the clearest verse in the Scripture on this is Proverbs 14:1. It says, "A wise woman builds her house, but with her own hands the foolish one tears hers down."

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh.

Dr. Juli Slattery: And so both the woman who's building and tearing down has power, but how is she using that power? And so submission is God's teaching me to harness that power in a way that builds my house instead of tearing it down.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. And what builds your house builds your life, your heart, your own happiness. It's a positive cycle. I mean, it's just a -- it's a positive cycle. But I will say, that is not a way that a lot of us think of submission. And so I appreciate it because I think traditional teachings on submission may have been a little more imbalanced, and maybe even destructive. So tell me what you think about that.

Dr. Juli Slattery: Oh, I absolutely agree. And I understand why so many women hate this teaching or they're angry when we even say words like "respect" or "submission," because they have heard it presented in a way that has felt demeaning, like they're less than. And for some women, they've actually experienced the brunt of being in a dysfunctional relationship that's being reinforced by a teaching that your husband's the head of the house, whatever he says goes, you don't really have a voice in this. And that really is not the heart of Scripture. It's not the heart of God.

When we look at the mystery of marriage, that God takes a man and a woman who are both created in his image and he calls them to oneness in a way that reflects the oneness that he has with us, the oneness that the Trinity has with each other, that intimacy, it is two strengths, two strong people coming together in a way that uniquely fits. It's not one strong person and one weak person. And so my heart goes out to the woman who has not only heard unbalanced messages, but actually felt the pain of that being lived out in a marriage relationship.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, she's living it out even maybe now. So I think we all see submission being used in ways that are wrong, and even dangerous. So for those who are listening right now, what would be some signs and some red flags that submission is being incorrectly used in a household, so a woman kind of has some clear understanding of that?

Dr. Juli Slattery: Well, I think one of them is fear. So if there's fear in your relationship -- you know, we know that God doesn't give us the spirit of fear, that he doesn't reign in a place where there's fear. And so if there's a fear of, oh, if I say this, I'm going to make my husband mad, that sort of thing. Feelings of being controlled, if it's like you don't have a say. You know, like, he controls all the money or he tells you what friends you can see or how often you can see your family, that would be -- another big red flag is, okay, this is not a healthy dynamic. If you don't feel like you have a voice or that your voice is heard or respected, then that's another piece of it. So those would be things that you need to again look at and pray, and more importantly I think -- not more importantly pray. That's very important. But along with that, reach out for help.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Dr. Juli Slattery: And if this conversation is even just prompting some of those questions, who can you talk to to just say, Hey, I'm wondering if maybe I've misunderstood this teaching. I'm wondering if maybe there's some things in my marriage that are not healthy.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's a good word. And I appreciate you saying reaching out, because sometimes speaking to her spouse, if he has a grave misunderstanding of this, may not go so well, the first conversation. So getting a little good biblical counseling and wisdom, and maybe involving trusted friends into the conversation, yeah, could be a healthy way to approach the subject.

But it's interesting, you said earlier that your book, a lot of it is really -- not just one chapter, but a lot of it is about submission. And it's interesting, because I was going to ask you if your book was about the power that women have in marriage. And so what I've seen is, you know, that's two sides of the same coin. So describe what this power looks like when it's really working well -- okay? -- and where does it come from?

Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah, I don't think you can understand submission until you first understand power. So, yeah, they do go together, so -- which is, again, a different way of approaching it, because it's not weakness, it's power.

So our power comes from God. He's the one that gives us what we have to steward, and part of that is our power in our marriage. So power that originates from -- in any relationship, from the other person's needs. And this is a paradigm shift for a lot of people. A lot of women feel like I can affect my marriage by focusing on what I need. In reality, your power in your marriage comes from what your husband needs.

Now, kind of go with me for a minute. If you have something -- if you need something that somebody else has, whether you're really hungry and there's no food around and somebody else has food, or if you're sick and there's one person that has the medication for what you need, the person who has what you need now all of a sudden has a lot of power in that relationship. They can kind of set the terms, right? They can say, Well, I'll give you the food, but it's going to cost you this amount of money. And the same thing is true in marriage. That when your husband has a unique need and you're the one who can meet that need, that gives you relational power.

And God has created us so that women have some unique relational needs that give our husband power in marriage, and men have some unique relational needs that give wives power in marriage. And so my power to impact my marriage comes in understanding my husband's needs and wisely stewarding how I address those needs. And so again, I think that's a paradigm shift for a lot of women. They think, I got to focus on getting what I need in order for marriage to change.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow, that is a paradigm shift. A lot to process, which is why we are recommending your book. Because this is not something you just hear a 30-minute podcast and go, Okay, got it, and move on.

So tell me this, though. What about men's power in marriage? Do they have the same? I mean, is it equal? Like, do we both have the same power?

Dr. Juli Slattery: I don't think it's equal. Honestly, I don't. I think that women have more power, so -- men have power in what we need, so -- like, most women would identify with the need to feel loved, valued, cherished. You want to be your husband's number one. And so he has power. And is he meeting that need? You know, is he attentive to you? Is he listening? Does he care about you? You feel -- when that need's not being met, you feel really hurt if he's spending 80 hours a week at work or he's looking at pornography or he's not listening to you. And so that's where his power is coming from.

But I think about the old romantic comedy "My Big Fat Greek Wedding." There's a line in there that I've heard many women quote, and I think it's true. But the woman says, "Yeah, the man is the head, but the woman is the neck, and the neck can turn the head anywhere she wants." And I think that kind of hints at the fact that women do, by God's design, actually have more relational power in marriage. And part of that comes from generally women are more attuned to the nuances of relationship.

So men are going to see things very black and white, like, oh, yeah, it's this or that. Women feel the emotional undertones of the relationship, and because of that they have more intuition, they have more power to affect the way things go. So in my work as a psychologist, most relationships I see, the woman has more power.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's so interesting. And just to be frank, is it also because of the different sexual needs for men and women?

Dr. Juli Slattery: That's part of it. Definitely for a lot of men, they would identify the sexual journey as a huge need. And we can see even in culture that sex gives a lot of power. We see the whole -- Madison Avenue used that. Sex appeal sells. Sex gets a man's attention. And we see that happening even in our culture where women are owning their power maybe in an unhealthy way by using their sexuality to get men to do what they want in an unhealthy way. And so there is a sense of God gave women that sensuality, that sexuality that draws a man's attention for -- his original intent was a good reason, that a woman would capture her husband's attention and it would be a powerful way that is drawing him to her. So that's certainly one big part of it.

But I think an even bigger part of it, a greater need that men have is a need that typically we call respect. And again, some women hearing that word "respect" are like, "Ooh, I've heard this before. We got to respect our husbands." But we don't understand the root of a man's need for respect. Most men are very vulnerable, more vulnerable than women to failure. They have this drama of competence. Am I good enough? Am I going to fail? Which is why I named the book "Finding the Hero in Your Husband," because your husband wants to be your hero.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Yeah.

Dr. Juli Slattery: And he has a fear that if he steps out, he makes a decision, he leads, he shares his thoughts, he's going to be exposed as a failure. And so most men in our culture become very passive because of that and they just withdraw and they just are like, Fine, if she wants to make decisions, let her go ahead and do it, because I don't want to risk failure. And so a man's greatest relational need in marriage is not sex, it's actually to feel like you believe in him. Even though you know all of his weaknesses, you still say, I believe in the man that you are. I'm behind you. I'm not going to compete with you, I'm not going to get the upper hand and tell you what to do. I want to draw out the strength of the man that's inside of you. And so I think that's where a woman's greatest source of power comes from.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. That's such a good word.

And what I think is interesting, Juli, is -- I've been married many, many decades, and it's taken me many decades to really see that this is true. Because in some ways, it's counterintuitive to a woman. It's just not the way I'm wired, so I just don't understand why he thinks that way or feels that way. So I'm glad you're being so clear about this.

I'm curious also if you can give us some really good examples -- like, what are some ways that wives misuse this power? Okay? So you already mentioned women in general, Madison Avenue, how will they use sex. But how is it that wives can do this and misuse it? And maybe even you've got some examples that you've learned the hard way.

Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah, I have. I've been married probably about as long as you have, and I've done things wrong a lot. Our words are first and foremost, and the Proverbs talk so much about the power of our words. You know, they either bring life or death. And I think this is really true in marriage. And so it's not even the words I speak, but the tone from which I speak them. So walking into a room and being, like, immediately, Why didn't you do this? And, Why is this wrong? And, I thought I asked you to do this. You know, kind of taking that critical mom spirit with my husband immediately is going to get him to want to retreat. It's not calling forth the man in him, it's being the mom that's scolding a naughty child essentially. And a lot of women will get into this habit.

I've gotten into the habit over different times in my marriage where all I can see is the negative and so the only things that come out of my mouth are the negative. That's so much different than choosing to focus on the positive and choosing to speak the positive. Thank you for doing -- thanks for helping.

Let me give you a very practical example. And this is where I was struggling early in marriage. My husband would work a 9:00 to 5:00 job, then I would counsel a couple of nights a week just -- so I'd be home with little kids. We'd high five, he'd come in and I'd go out. A lot of times I would have made dinner, like chicken or something healthy. And I come home after counseling in the evening, maybe 10:00 at night, and I see that he didn't eat the chicken I made and there's pizza boxes. And so suddenly I'm starting to ask him, Well, what did you guys do? Oh, we watched a movie. And, like, oh, my goodness, like, I've kept the kids from screen time all day, I made this healthy meal, and you just order pizza and watch a movie. And you're laughing because you can probably relate.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yes. I mean, we've all got a version of this story. Yes.

Dr. Juli Slattery: And so out of my mouth comes, "Why didn't you do this?" and, "Why did you let them watch this movie?" instead of realizing, like, okay, my husband just worked a full day, and he's taking care of three little kids. Instead of me saying thank you, like we're a good team, and I appreciate how well you love our boys, you know, I'm going to the negative of why didn't you do it the way I said you should? And that kind of scenario, as you mentioned, plays out in all different versions depending on what a chapter of life that we are.

But there will always be something to find wrong and there will always be something to find right. And the hero comes out in my husband when I focus on what I see that is good and I call forth what is good. It doesn't mean that I ignore big problems. There's a time to address those. But in our daily exchange, is our marriage relationally safe for him? Does he step into a relationship where he knows his wife's got his back, believes in him, loves him, sees the best in him, or is it a relationship climate where he's just kind of waiting for the next shoe to drop where I'm going to criticize.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Dr. Juli Slattery: So that's probably the most practical way this plays out for most women.

Jennifer Rothschild: So how, Juli, does a woman who is identifying with this, and she realizes she does go quickly to the negative, and so -- like, for me personally, I feel like the way my brain works, negativity can be a habit. It becomes a default mechanism. And so I will have to catch myself, because I'm an analyzer, and so it's easy to analyze and come up with a negative quickly. And so my brain has figured out that that's my pattern and I have to work against it.

So how would you coach a woman who might be in that situation and so, of course, all she can see is the negative? How does she reframe that and train herself to not always default to that and immediately go negative?

Dr. Juli Slattery: Well, really two things. And one of them you just said, which is you do have to train yourself. And there have been times in my marriage where I've just had to sit down on a regular basis and write out all the things I love about my husband. And just, like, sit there with a piece of paper or a journal and just say, wow, I love this about his physical appearance, and I love this about his sense of humor, and I love this about the way he shows care to me, and I love this about the way he parents. And that's a very biblical thing that God tells us to do in Philippians 4, you know, "Whatever is good and right and true and praiseworthy and excellent, think on these things."

And so there is a discipline involved on what we're going to choose, and surrounding ourself with people that will reinforce that positive framework instead of surrounding ourselves with people that will reinforce kind of the griping attitude. So that's the first thing, is that discipline.

But I think the second thing is equally important. We focus on the negative because of fear. And I love in 1 Peter 3 where Peter is talking about being this woman with -- not being a quiet woman, but being a woman with a quiet spirit. And there's a difference between being quiet with my mouth and having a quiet, at peace spirit in my marriage. And he says be like Sarah, who did not give way to fear. And whenever I'm focused on being critical, it's usually because there's a nagging fear underneath. I'm afraid that if I don't nag my husband, he might lose his job. Or I'm afraid that if I don't nag him, he's going to parent wrong or he's going to run through our money. And so really to get out of that pattern is not just the discipline, but it's also taking that fear to God, calling it by name. A lot of our fears are irrational. Some of them are real. But we will never do this well if we live in a spirit of fear, because God is asking us to trust him with our fears so that we can be free to invest our power in a way that's healthier.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know, that's such a good word. I, over the last year, realized that I was dealing with a little more resentment. And I was trying to confess it as sin, I was trying to dig underneath, why do I feel resentment? And then I began to literally just say, Lord, I trust you with my resentment. I trust you to guide me through this and then help me to discover the source of it. Because really, the source of my resentment legitimately could not be another human. It had to be my expectations or my misunderstanding or my hurt, or whatever it might be. So I was asking the Lord, show me, give me ownership over where I am. And so -- I'm taking the long route to get to this location. The Lord brought me to a place of humility. And in that humility, when I really humbled myself and felt the freedom to be loved by God in certain areas, my resentment toward other people diminished and disappeared.

And so as I'm hearing you and I'm hearing you saying that trust God, you know, to -- yes, you're being disciplined, but you're also trusting God instead of acting out of fear. That is a powerful force that we don't realize how pragmatic trust in God really can be in our relationships.

Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah, it sets us free.

Jennifer Rothschild: It does set us free. It does. And it also -- I just think it -- well, yeah.

Dr. Juli Slattery: And I've heard some women say that when they've really confronted the Lord with us, you now, God will say something to them, like, Hey, you need to get your hands off my man. In other words, your husband is also my son.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Dr. Juli Slattery: And all these things that you want to fix in him, I got them. You just take care of trusting me and being faithful in your own walk and trust me with them. And that's the source of a lot of it. A lot of women intuitively see what's wrong with their husbands and they feel like if they don't fix them, nobody will. And we've got to take our hands off and be like, Lord, he's yours --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Dr. Juli Slattery: -- and I trust you with him, and I'll focus on what it is to honor you in how I live my life.

Jennifer Rothschild: So I'm going to ask Phil, my husband, tonight, Spouse, do you feel heard? Honey, do you feel appreciated? I thought that was super powerful.

K.C. Wright: And then the goal is that you don't argue with his answer. All right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, exactly.

K.C. Wright: You listen, you lean in, figure out where to go from there.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

K.C. Wright: This is such a simple and hard thing to do in a relationship, in any relationships, that can make such a huge difference. And I think we've just been to counseling today with Juli.

Jennifer Rothschild: I do think we've been to counseling. Yeah, that's what I would call some very bold, strong Java with Juli.

So if you want more -- and I know you want more -- check out her podcast. We'll have a link on the show notes at 413podcast.com/209.

K.C. Wright: You will also find a link to her book right there, plus a full transcript of this great conversation. And, Jennifer, you and Juli actually keep talking, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, we do. So stay on this platform where you're listening right now. And when this episode ends, a bonus after-hours episode will show up. And it's really short, you guys, very short. Not even ten minutes. And it's super practical. But I believe you're really going to like what she has to say.

K.C. Wright: I call it the after party.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, it is an after party.

K.C. Wright: So hang out. Okay?

Friends, until next week, remember that no matter what you face in life or how you feel even now, you can do all things through Christ who gives you supernatural strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

Jennifer and K.C.: And you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, K.C., I know we're not married, but I do want you to know I hear you and I appreciate you.

K.C. Wright: I hear you and I appreciate you --

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, thank you.

K.C. Wright: -- I really do.

Jennifer Rothschild: So we're good?

K.C. Wright: Yes.

4:13 Podcast: Can I Submit and Still Hold On to My Power as a Woman? With Dr. Juli Slattery [Episode 209 – Part 2 – After Hours]

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, 4:13ers, this is Jennifer Rothschild. There was one more thing that I wanted you to hear from my conversation with Dr. Juli Slattery in Episode 209. It's super practical and very short, and it's just how to manage differing opinions and responsibilities when it comes to relationships. So you're going to hear me mid-question. I'm just going to start this mid-question, but then you're going to hear Juli's complete answer. Okay? So then after you hear that, I want you to go to show notes at 413podcast.com/209, because you'll see a transcript of the Episode 209, plus this little brief conversation, and you'll be able to check out her book and her podcast. So check out the rest of this conversation with me and Juli.

We're going to head to the last question and get super pragmatic here, just how this plays out in daily life. So, like, trying to figure out -- so you're trying to learn this submissive powerful relationship you have here, and so it shows up in small things. So, like, figuring out, like, who does what in marriage. It can be like a minefield, right --

Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- because it can explode if one person steps in the wrong place and doesn't do what they said. So give us some really practical encouragement about how a couple can get on the same page when it comes to just the details, like housework, like parenting, like all that kind of stuff.

Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah. So the details are -- they're the part of the iceberg that you can see. So housework and money and all those sort of things, that's the symptom. And so often we fight about the symptom of why do I have to do all the work around the house or why won't you parent the way I think you should parent? And where real healing and intimacy take place is when we get below that symptom and we're really looking at the dynamic of our marriage. Does he feel heard? Do I feel heard? Does he feel appreciated? Do I feel appreciated? If you take the average fight around household tasks, it comes down to one of those two things. Like, either I'm doing everything and I feel like he doesn't even see or appreciate what I'm doing or I have no voice here.

And so if you work with a good marriage counselor, this is what they're going to do. They're going to be like, you're arguing about these superficial things, and they feel like they matter, but they're really not what matters. What matters is the health of the dynamic between you. And that would just be my encouragement, is -- you know, ask God not just to take care of the parts of the iceberg that you can see so that you can have peace in your home, but get down deep into what does it really look like to love each other well, to honor each other well, and to make marriage a place that is genuinely emotionally safe for both you and your husband.