4:13 Podcast: Spill the Beans LIVE with Tammy Trent and Shaun Groves at Fresh Grounded Faith Greenville, SC [Episode 284]

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, this is Jennifer Rothschild. You know I love my audiobooks from Audible. That's how I'm able to read so many books in a year. If you've never tried it, you can get a 30-day free trial with no obligation. Plus, you'll get a free audiobook of your choice that you can keep. So go to 413podcast.com/Audible to get started. And now, the podcast.

We are coming to you live from Greenville, South Carolina, at a Fresh Grounded Faith conference. It's me, singer-songwriter Sean Groves, and Tammy Trent, the author and the singer and now the co-host of the Life Today TV show, and we are talking about how to know if you are called to ministry, how to show grace to someone maybe who has disappointed you, and we get very practical about how to manage depression. I also tell a story about climbing the Great Wall of China when it was a slab of ice. No kidding. And it was the dead of winter, so -- well, it's quite a story. Anyway...

I also tell the story of my worst makeup mix-up ever. This was funny, and it was warm and it was emotional, practical and wise, and it was everything you need to make this day even better. So pull up your chair to the Bistro table and let's Spill Some Beans.

K.C. Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and Biblical wisdom set you and I up to live what we call the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, our friends, Jennifer here, and we're so glad you're here. K.C. Wright, my Seeing Eye Guy. It's two friends and one topic, zero stress. Our goal is just to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you're living the "I Can" life.

But I got to tell you, we got yelled at this morning. Did we get yelled at? We got spoken to in a loud voice. Because K.C. and I were having a little conflict in the kitchen over coffee.

K.C. Wright: Well, I'm loud.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, you are loud. He is loud.

K.C. Wright: Well, I learned from you. I don't know if this is Scripture, but you said friends don't let other friends drink bad coffee.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. And that is true. But that is still no excuse for what you did. Okay, so here's the thing. Phil comes out and he's like, "Hey, y'all are being very loud," because our podcast closet is down here in the offices. And I guess we were being loud, and here's why.

K.C. Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: There's a coffee machine down here, a little Keurig, in the kitchenette. K.C. is not as particular as I am. Though he does have coffee taste, he is not as particular. So I brought downstairs my K-Cup of Verona coffee and I sat it down there. And I'm like, "K.C., go ahead and get your coffee." Well, then I'm trying to find mine. I can't find it anywhere. I'm like, What did I do with it? I must have hidden it so well. K.C. is over there sipping, and finally he goes, "I think I'm drinking your coffee." Well, I freaked out. I'm like, "Which one of us loses our testimony over bad coffee, K.C.?" Me. He was causing me to stumble. So I start yelling, he's laughing, we're just -- it was a moment. I'm just saying it was a moment between these two friends. There was not zero stress. Anyway, so I'm in here drinking quite substandard coffee, and his Verona smells so good.

K.C. Wright: She is passionate about the Gospel of Jesus.

Jennifer Rothschild: And coffee.

K.C. Wright: And coffee.

Jennifer Rothschild: I am being a big fat, grown-up baby woman right now. But I really do want K.C. to have the better cup of coffee. That's Biblical. Kind of. Kind of. I don't really feel that way, but I'm just going to say that.

K.C. Wright: And I just walked in there and it was just sitting right there.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right.

K.C. Wright: What's a man to do? I saw Starbucks, and away it went.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, and if I were really a nice young woman, I would have just said, "Here, K.C., have the better coffee." Yeah, I feel under conviction. We need to hurry up and get on this conversation so I can go repent.

Anyway, let me tell you what you're about to hear. Tammy Trent -- by the way, if you've never heard her or seen her perform -- she is also a dancer, y'all. And she had just torn up the stage there at Fresh Grounded Faith and she had just danced. So you're going to probably hear us talking at the beginning of this conversation about her still catching her breath, because she was -- literally, she danced, she sat in the chair, and she was like (makes panting sound), still trying to catch her breath.

Okay. The other thing that you might hear, that you need to know because it might not make sense to you otherwise, we were spilling the beans on a Saturday. Karen Abercrombie, who was Miss Clara in The War Room --

K.C. Wright: Yes, yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- she had been with us the night before and done some drama and shared her testimony and just brought the house down. Anyway, so we might even refer to Karen at this conversation. And I wanted you to know who we are talking about, because we love Karen Abercrombie. And so when you hear the male voice, of course, that will be Sean Groves. He's going to be asking all the questions. So that's what you need to know so you can pull up your chair.

K.C. Wright: Hey, let me remind you about our friends. Tammy Trent is a singer-songwriter, author, and now the co-host of, like Jennifer said, the Live Today TV show. I call Tammy Trent sunshine with hair.

Jennifer Rothschild: She is.

K.C. Wright: Like, she's just a ball of sunshine.

Jennifer Rothschild: And energy. Well, you know, one of her songs is called Sunny Days.

K.C. Wright: I didn't know that.

Jennifer Rothschild: It fits her.

K.C. Wright: Okay. Then there's Sean Groves. He's amazing. As a worship leader, incredible storyteller, singer-songwriter, he's the man. And then you know our precious, anointed, appointed for such a time as this, J.R. All right? So pull up a chair. There is room at this table for you. And by the way, when you hear these podcasts live from a Fresh Grounded Faith, I mean, if this is not a sign, that means you need to book your flight to the next one, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Exactly. We will definitely show them where it's going to be on the Show Notes.

K.C. Wright: Because you can listen or you can be there. And I'm telling you, being there is a whole lot better.

But here we go. There's room at the table for you. Together let's Spill the Beans.

Sean Groves: So will you please share the moment that God revealed, after you lost your sight, that he had a vision for you in ministry.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's such a good question.

Sean Groves: Was it a moment?

Jennifer Rothschild: And that's why I would like to answer it.

Sean Groves: Yeah, okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: Because, no, it wasn't a moment. It was a series of moments. And there are still series of moments that affirm or transition ministry for me. And I think that's an important thing for all of us, that -- well, I'll put it this way first. Ministry is not something we achieve; ministry is something we receive. And we receive it through opportunities that come where we respond with obedience. So to me, the real call of ministry is just a call -- it is a call of faithfulness.

When I was a kid, before I lost my sight, you know, I would lead the -- teenager -- I would lead the youth choir. I would even clean the bathrooms at the church. You know what I'm saying? That was, honestly, just as valid ministry as what I'm doing today.

Tammy Trent: Absolutely.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so, no, there probably wasn't a defining moment. There have been defining moments of faithfulness which have affirmed my calling, but I never felt an epiphany call. And I think all of us when we receive Christ, we receive the calling to ministry, whatever that looks like. And we do it faithfully, and the -- I told the volunteers yesterday -- because y'all, you have, like, 100 volunteers here who are pouring out for you this weekend. What I told them is what happens on this stage with Tammy and Karen and Sean and me, yes, it matters. But what they do is just as important. What you're doing in ministry is just as important, even if nobody knows your name, because the ground at the foot of the cross is perfectly level. There's no high, there's no low. And so, yeah, you be faithful in all the moments and you'll see how that has affirmed your calling.

Sean Groves: Yeah. That's good. That's really good.

All right, Tammy.

Jennifer Rothschild: Can breathe now?

Tammy Trent: I can. I'm halfway there.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

Sean Groves: So did you -- you've answered this, but I would like you to -- maybe you could give a bit more depth, because I've heard you give more depth on this. So did you ever remarry or have children? You talked a bit about that. Is there more you'd want to share on that?

Tammy Trent: No.

Sean Groves: All right, let's go.

Tammy Trent: No, no, no. So -- kidding. So, no, I have --

Sean Groves: Now we're on to Jennifer's lip liner.

Tammy Trent: I have not remarried. You know, the thing is, I -- like we talked about not looking -- for me, I'm not looking for that. But I'm open to what God has for me. I don't know that I'll ever marry again. I'm not sure. I'm not -- I don't want to be closed off to God's will, but I do think it's going to come as a great surprise. It could be when I'm 75. I don't know. You know, I'm 55 now, so I kind of feel like maybe when I hit 75, you'll see me walking on the beach with some old man, and I'd be like, "I'm so in love with him." Like, we can hardly walk, we're pulling each other in a wheelchair on the beach, you know, through the sand.

Sean Groves: Don't make that face when you meet him.

Tammy Trent: That might be why I'm still single today.

Jennifer Rothschild: But here's what I want to know. Okay, let's get right down to it. All right. So you've been married --

Tammy Trent: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and you know the fulfillment and companionship of marriage.

Tammy Trent: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And now you are single and you still have great fulfillment. But do you long for the marriage companionship? Is that something that the Lord has replaced that longing?

Tammy Trent: He has.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Talk about that.

Tammy Trent: Yeah, Jenn. I mean, that's a great question. Because for whatever reason, I don't have a longing for it. Now, maybe it's because I experienced it to the fullest. Like, I was a girl that got -- you know, I met this guy so young, and then we married for 11 years and it was so rich and so good and I knew love so deeply. I don't think there's a fear of will I never experience that again or will somebody ruin what I have. I don't think like that. But I'm so fulfilled and I just think there's other things in my life that even in my singleness that God has made available to me. Even, like, television, things I'm doing now, I don't know that I could do that if I were married with kids.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, true.

Tammy Trent: The mission field that I go on a couple of times a year just traveling to Africa for three weeks at a time, I'm not sure how that would look. So I think what I've done in this season is that I've looked at what I do have in my life rather than what I don't have. So many of us spend so much time looking at what we don't have, what we wish we have, instead of what we have around us already that God has given us so that we can pour our lives into that.

So I didn't get to have kids, but I have a ton of nieces and nephews that -- what do I do now? I pour my life into these kids. And even three of them are coming to my house next week. Now they're in their mid-20s, late-20s. Two of the girls are single and they still want to hang out with Aunt TT. And I love it because I get to send them home --

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Tammy Trent: -- and I don't have to pay for their college.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Tammy Trent: But I love it. And so again, I look at what I do have. Where can I pour my life? On a mission field with those little kids that aren't being held every day and I just kind of say, "Come and let me scoop you up for a day for a few hours." So I do try to look at what I do have.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's a good word.

Sean Groves: Can I ask a follow-up question?

Tammy Trent: Yeah.

Sean Groves: This is purely for selfish reasons. I may be the only one in the room who cares about the answer. But you know that I'm on staff at a church in more of a pastoral care kind of role. And one of the great epiphanies of that, that so many of our single people at different stages of life have taught me -- I just was completely unaware of as someone who got married in his 20s -- was how hard our church makes it for people to be content in singleness. And that we oftentimes, just in the illustrations we use in sermons or just in our language, that we really kind of accidentally, honestly, have held up being married or having children as the Christian ideal. And I didn't realize that we were sending that message and hurting people.

But how does your church, your Christian community, serve you in that way? How do they affirm your singleness in this stage of life? How have they helped you to find that contentment?

Tammy Trent: Oh, my goodness. It's a really good way that you put that. And when I think of community, I think of my family as well. My parents are pastors, and so they have circled me well. And I think they have celebrated in my healing through the loss of Trent and just where God has me, and wanting me to find fulfillment in myself and in who I am, my identity in Christ. And so instead of rushing into relationship to let that person fulfill a need that I have -- because the truth is, no guy is ever going to fulfill those needs in me. No guy is ever going to make me the happiest. Only my -- for one, my relationship with Jesus. I'll keep throwing that at you because that's the way I live in my relationship with Jesus. At the same time, you have to know who you are. You have to be content in you. You have to find joy in you, not in somebody else.

So I think, Sean, to answer your question -- I've kind of circled it -- but they have helped me just find peace in myself growing and finding healing, and that if God has someone for me, great. But they've never pushed it on me. I've never felt pressure from my community or my circle, my pastor, that the end resolve of your story, Tammy, is that you've found love again.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah.

Tammy Trent: You're having sex.

Sean Groves: That's good.

Tammy Trent: Oops. You know what I'm -- it's that silly, though. You know, sometimes it's that silly, like it's -- but it's not that. There's so much more to even a healthy relationship to me than even just that what's missing in my life. It's like nothing right now that God isn't fulfilling and providing in my life and taking care of me. So I'm grateful I haven't experienced that. And I know some have and been hurt by that, to feel like you're not complete unless you're married.

Sean Groves: Well, I think maybe a dimension of your ministry that you may not even be aware of as much is that there are probably women every room that you step into who are feeling that way. And you standing on stage as a confident, secure, Godly, faithful minister of the Gospel, and you are whole and you're complete, you're not half a person waiting for your other half, your life is speaking truth and hope to those women.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

Tammy Trent: Amen. Sean, thank you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Totally agree.

Tammy Trent: Thank you, my brother. Thank you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Totally agree.

Sean Groves: So, Jennifer, this message of grace, grace, grace, how do you show grace, grace, grace when it's your loved one who's disappointed you?

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh. And I don't need to be the only one answering this question. I would love to hear your all's opinions too.

Well, first of all, I think we all experience disappointment. We also are capable of disappointing others. So I think the first way to give grace to someone who has disappointed you is to recognize you have the capacity to do the very same thing. Except by the grace of God, there go I. And I have disappointed people. I will say this. This might be a hard word, so I say it to you with grace, I really do. When we are the least self-absorbed, we are the least able to be offended. And if it's hard for you to show grace to someone who has disappointed you, it could be because you've not received the grace of God yourself. It could be that maybe your expectations are to a level that might be unrealistic or, let's just be honest, maybe somebody is being a bonehead. You can still raise your expectations to the level of grace and remind yourself of how Jesus loves, forbears, and forgives you, and then through Christ in you, who is your power, you extend that to someone else.

There's a difference between showing grace and relinquishing boundaries. If somebody constantly disappoints you, you can have boundaries to protect yourself from being mistreated, but you can still show grace within boundaries. It's hard to speak so theoretically without specifics. But what do y'all think?

Sean Groves: No, I'm glad that you -- I was going to add the boundary thing, as I'm meeting with so many people in our church who are experiencing disappointment. But that's a broad category, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Sean Groves: I mean, there is -- someone might be using the term "disappointment," but they're really in a situation that's dangerous and unhealthy and -- so, yeah, boundaries is very important.

And so you'll hear us say this a lot. I'm sure we'll say it in our answers to other questions here. You're not meant to do any of this alone. So bring in wise friends -- not just any friend, but wise friends -- mentors, people who have walked a few more steps on this journey than you have, and someone that -- you know, I tell people, "Tell me who your 2:00 a.m. friend is." Like, not just that casual friend. But at 2:00 a.m. you call them and they don't try to fix you, they just welcome you. "Hey, come over." That's the person you need in this moment. Hey, I've been disappointed, here's exactly what it is. Will you pray with me? Will you help me discern next steps forward? So just to invite someone else into that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Good word.

Sean Groves: Because it may be that grace looks like getting away.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Sean Groves: That grace just looks different in your situation.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, if you're needing grace because you're disappointed in your husband because he forgets to close the toilet seat, like, that's a whole different issue --

Tammy Trent: Yeah, that's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- than needing to show grace when you're disappointed because you have been betrayed because of infidelity. So, yes, that's why you need a 2:00 a.m. friend to help you parse these things.

Sean Groves: Yeah. So how do you keep going when it feels like you're just walking uphill on the ice?

Jennifer Rothschild: I think that's kind of a question of perseverance, isn't it?

Sean Groves: Yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know what's funny about that question, though? I actually went to China in January and climbed the Great Wall of China. And it was covered with ice. So I kind of giggled when I hear that question, because I did climb the Great Wall of China on ice uphill. And it's interesting how I did it. Very interesting. I was holding on to my sister-in-law Carrie. Okay, y'all can apply this. I was holding on to my sister-in-law Carrie. So you got to hold on to somebody.

I had my cane, which assisted me, and I literally used it to steady me. But then you know what would happen? The wind would blow behind us every now and then, and literally there'd be this gust of wind behind us and we'd slide forward. So we weren't actually using effort and climbing, we were, like, being propelled.

And I just think of the times in my life where it just feels like the hard never ends, and it gets harder and then it's hard to do the hard. You know what I'm talking about? It is that feeling of ice uphill. And I think that kind of fits. Just like Sean just said, you find your 2:00 a.m. friend. You don't do it alone. You need the physical support, you need the spiritual and emotional support. But then you need to rely on what's around you.

You know, sometimes when I have had my darkest moments, my tendency is to isolate. I got to get inside my head and I got to figure this out. Once I can figure it out, then I can share it with somebody maybe so that I can tell them how to help me. And I'm just saying we need to rely on others and be honest at the time, and I think that's how you get through it. Like Sean said, we're not meant to do it by ourselves.

Sean Groves: Yeah. Bible Study Connection. If you haven't yet found that friend, it's a good place to start, in Bible Study Connection.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, it is.

Sean Groves: Or the woman who gave you a back rub.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's right. She loves you.

Sean Groves: Start right there. Start there.

Yeah, do you have anything to add to that? How do you keep going when you feel like you just can't?

Tammy Trent: No. Honestly, sometimes when I sit up here during Spill the Beans with whomever we have on the weekend, I walk away learning so much. Jenn, you -- I'm so grateful for you and your knowledge of the Word and just your knowledge of life, the way you've lived your life and the things that you speak and share. My life is richer because of you in my life. And Sean too. You have so much wisdom, and I'm grateful for that.

Jennifer Rothschild: But I'm more -- I mean more to you, though, than him?

Tammy Trent: You do. And I don't want him to know, so let's not tell him.

Sean Groves: He's really close.

Tammy Trent: He seems hairy and -- facial hairy.

But, yeah, so -- no, I'm just grateful. And I think the emotion comes from the knowing that -- everything you both said, that we just can't do life alone, we weren't meant to. And so is there a way to get rid of that icy hill you keep climbing? It might always -- I don't know if it's going to be a part of your life for a long while this side of heaven or a short season. I don't know. But I'm telling you, you'll get up that hill a lot easier when you're holding the arm of a great friend that's helping to pull you along or coach you along or push you along. So, I mean, the greatest advice is just listening to you both. It's so true. I could have never got through my sorrow and my grief if I didn't have safe people surrounding my life that loved God, that could pray for me when I didn't know what to pray myself.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. That's a good word. We have need of perseverance.

Sean Groves: Yeah.

Someone asked, have any of you dealt with depression? So on the count of three, show of hands, the three of us.

Jennifer and Sean: One, two, three.

Sean Groves: Yeah. Two-thirds. Two-thirds of us.

Jennifer Rothschild: I knew she hadn't.

Tammy Trent: How did you see that my hand was down?

Jennifer Rothschild: Because I know that about you.

Tammy Trent: You can see. It's a miracle.

Jennifer Rothschild: It is. It's all these charismatics here. I knew it would take. Anyway...

Sean Groves: [Laughs] That was good, Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: You're welcome.

Because I know your life and I know you. And let's be honest too. I know you got some different brain chemistry than I have. I think you've got more dopamine than I ever had in my life.

Sean Groves: I think the serotonin pipe is always leaking. It's just dripping --

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Sean Groves: -- dripping happiness.

Jennifer Rothschild: I think this is why Sean and I suffer. You stole all our brain chemicals.

Okay. But, yes, Sean and I have, and we've talked about it. And so I want to hear from Sean, because y'all have heard so much from me. Tell us about, yeah, what your struggle's been and how you've dealt with it.

Sean Groves: When I was 12, I remember sitting in Miss Armstrong's algebra class, and it was like someone put sunglasses on me and a cloud rolled over the sun, and I just -- it was just this deep, heavy despair. Greater than you normally experience in algebra class, right? So it was like -- and I couldn't explain it, and I thought I was losing my mind, and I didn't tell anybody. And I really just thought, well, this is a spiritual problem, I've lost my faith. I don't feel God, I don't know if I believe in God, and I just thought it was spiritual. I felt a lot of guilt and shame on top of that. And It went on for about a month, and then it just lifted and I couldn't explain it. And I can tell you that once or twice a year for many years that would happen to me.

And then when I was 30, the big one came, and it just knocked me out. And I had all the symptoms of major clinical depression. If you look at Google and look at a list, all of those I had. So insomnia, hypersomnia, physical pain. You know, I thought, no, no, no, there's no way this is depression. Like, I've got the flu or cancer or something bad. Like, my bones hurt. It was not just sadness. I guess for those of you who've never experienced it, that's what I would want you to know so that you can show us a bit of grace. It's not just feeling sad.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's not.

Sean Groves: Sadness is just normal humanity. Bad things happen. You shouldn't feel good about it or you're a psychopath, right? Like, if bad things happen, you shouldn't feel good about it. But this was deeper than that. My legs felt heavy. It was like I had a toddler wrapped around each ankle and it was a struggle just to take one step. And I just couldn't think straight. I couldn't read sentences and make sense of the words. I couldn't put sentences together. And I was just completely incapacitated. And out of desperation, I went and saw a doctor. I saw a therapist. I saw a Biblical counselor on top of the therapist. I went to freedom prayer sessions and had people -- I called every charismatic I've ever known and said, "You've got to teach me how to do this."

Jennifer Rothschild: Help me. I want to pray like you.

Sean Groves: Yeah, I want every -- what have you got? I want everything that you guys have.

I fought it with good food, with trying to just get out of bed and take a walk for ten minutes, everything I could. My wife wrote down Scripture and would just literally hold my hands in her face and just speak truth to me. And every time I said something that was a lie, that I was worthless, that I was stupid, that I just wanted to die, she would just tell me how loved I was, how God saw me, how God is still good. You're going to get through this. I'd rather have you broken than not have you at all. And we got through it. I've been back in that place a couple more times since then, but I have had no depression episodes. For the last 11 years, I've been depression free.

So it's what we've already been saying, you can't fight it alone. What I would want you to know -- and I didn't discover this viewpoint was so prevalent until this pastoral job I'm in. So often we think that this is purely a spiritual problem. And I just want you to know that God -- you are wonderfully and fearfully made and you are not just a spirit, but you're a body and a mind too. So we need to fight this spiritually, we need to fight this medically. You need a doctor speaking into this. You need community. You need prayer. You need Scripture. You need whole foods. You need exercise. You need water. You need sleep. Like, throw everything you've got at this thing. Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I'm with you. And I'm glad you described that so eloquently. It is endogenous. It is a physical thing. And I think that's what threw me off, because I'm a happy person, very driven. Never had an emotion that I couldn't process, you know. And it hit me about seven years ago, eight years ago, and I couldn't function. And I didn't know what was wrong with me, and I did all the things I knew to do. I finally ended up at the doctor. And it was precious. This doctor -- and she knew what I did in ministry. And she wanted to give me a medication, and she could tell I was very hesitant. And by the way, medication is one of the ways God provides healing. It's not the only way, and it doesn't need to be the first way, you know. We need to give our bodies and our spirits and our minds a chance to kind of process.

But I got to the point where I did need a medication. And she could read my hesitation and she said to me, "Let me just ask you a question. If I told you something was wrong with your liver, would you hesitate to take a medication?" No. She said, "Well, your brain is an organ, and it needs help, so that's what this medication is for." And it was a very good experience for me. It took about a month for it to really work and then I could think straight again.

But the funniest part, if you know my story at all, you know the first song I ever played when I lost my sight, I played by ear the old hymn It Is Well With My Soul. So wouldn't you know the doc, she prescribed to me a medication, Wellbutrin. So then I was singing for a while [singing], "It is Wellbutrin with my soul, with my soul." And God used it. And, yes, I have not needed it since, but God used it.

So not every sad feeling is depression, and depression cannot necessarily be fixed by talking about your sad feelings. So we need the wisdom of the Holy Spirit and we need community, and often we need to just talk to a doctor.

Sean Groves: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Let's follow that -- we'll go to the other end of the pool, the shallow end here. So, Jennifer --

Jennifer Rothschild: I love shallow.

Sean Groves: -- who does your makeup? And I want to add also, you always look spectacular. Like, you look fantastic. So who is your fashion consultant and who does your makeup? And they asked, Does Phil do it?

Jennifer Rothschild: They do ask if Phil does it. Phil checks my makeup. But I put on my own makeup. I've done it since I was 15 years old. My mom taught me how to do it by counting. So I know, like, for example, how many times to brush my blush brush on my cheekbone. It all works, you know. So as long as I don't lose count, things are looking good. Okay? That's all I got to say about it.

In fact, a few years ago, I had just -- not a few. Ten years ago, I had gotten my hair cut. You know, I used to have a ton of hair. And I got it short and I could not fix my hair. And I was, like, overdoing it. I knew it looked bad. And so I had remembered a friend of mine was selling cosmetics and giving me free samples of eyeliners and lip liners. So I thought, you know, I don't typically wear lip liner, but it can't be that hard, so I put it on. And I put on my eyeliner. I thought I was looking real cute. I wasn't really self-conscious about my hair. So I'm leaving my bathroom to get to my kitchen exit where Phil's going to pick me up -- because I'm about to go speak somewhere. So I passed Clayton in the living room, and he was playing a game on the TV. He takes his eyes off the screen, puts them on me, and he says, "Mom, your lips are black." Well, I did not think it was as funny as you did. And so, like, I corrected him. I'm like, "Son, my lips are not black. This is called raisin lip liner. It is just more dramatic than you're used to." And he's like, "Okay," and goes back to Mario.

So Phil comes home and I scurry through the kitchen because I can hear the garage door. And I get right there to that kitchen garage door exit. I'm pulling it toward me as he's about to walk in, so we're meeting face to face. And he says, "Jennifer Rothschild, your eyes are flaming red." Clearly I mixed up the two. That's why it's super important that I stick with my system.

Okay, but I will tell you a few things, just a little aside. Phil's not here to brag on, but he -- so I don't know about y'all, if you figured this out, but your eyelashes get thinner as you get older.

Tammy Trent: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I'm trying to do mascara, I'm like, "Where did they go?" And then I'm feeling here and I'm like [touches chin], "Oh, there they are." So anyway, I have started wearing -- do we call them false eyelashes?

Tammy Trent: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Fake false eyelashes. And Phil actually learned how to put them on. I was doing a video shoot and he said to the makeup artist, "Hey, can you show me how to do that?" And so he puts on my lashes for me. Isn't that sweet? When I'm on stage. Like I said, I'm happy to look -- no makeup at Target, but when I'm on stage, I try.

Anyway, so then the last part that you asked -- thank you for saying I look spectacular. I take no credit for it, because I have a fashion posse, the chief of which is here with me this weekend. And I tell her all the time when I come home -- people tell me, "You look so stylish." I'm like, "It's Kenzie. It's Kenzie." So Kenzie is traveling with me this weekend. She is 26 and so adorable, and she makes me look cute. So I always give Kenzie credit for my fashion style. So thank you to Kenzie. And she is too busy. Do not ask her for help. I am a full-time job for her. Okay? Yeah, so that's kind of how I do things.

K.C. Wright: As always, this was so practical, full of wisdom, and fun, I'm telling you. And I have to say, Tammy Trent is just hilarious.

Jennifer Rothschild: She is.

K.C. Wright: She's hilarious. If you don't follow her on social media, you're missing out.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my goodness, yes.

K.C. Wright: She's a hoot. Anyway, she makes me literally laugh out loud. She's a gift. She really is.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

K.C. Wright: So you need to follow Tammy and Sean. They will make your life better and infuse your days with joy, I promise. We will have links to their social media, plus music and books at the Show Notes right now just for you at 413 podcast.com/284.

Jennifer Rothschild: And we will also on the Show Notes have a link to the Fresh Grounded Faith tour, as we mentioned earlier, so that you can find a time and a place to come join us in person. Because it really is rich and meaningful and full of fun, Bible study, worship. And it's just the real thing. Everybody's just the real deal. So I really am so grateful for my partners in ministry. Anyway, go to the show notes at 413podcast.com/284 to get connected.

K.C. Wright: All right. Until next week, find some people to Spill the Beans with. And as we heard several times today, we need each other. Remember, whatever you face, however you feel, you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

Jennifer and K.C.: And you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: (Whispering) Especially if your friend doesn't steal your coffee.

K.C. Wright: Hey, speaking of being honest with people and coffee, I have to tell you. Do you remember the Fresh Grounded Faith conference I attended? I'm standing in line --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yes.

K.C. Wright: I'm standing in line --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, yes.

K.C. Wright: -- and I'm talking to one woman after another who is loving the 4:13 Podcast. I'm meeting, I'm greeting, I'm loving, we're praying. Finally, thank God for one honest Christian who in the middle of our conversation goes, "Honey, no one else is telling you this, but I'm going to step in and tell you that at the very tip of your nose, there's a big ball of coffee froth." And I had been drinking my cinnamon dolce latte, skinny, venti, extra hot, extra sprinkles, and there's a little hole in the top of these Starbucks cups --

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

K.C. Wright: -- and coffee froth had landed on the tip of my big bulby right pug nose, and she wiped that coffee off my nose.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, that is my kind of woman.