4:13 Podcast: Spill the Beans LIVE with Tammy Trent and Liz Curtis Higgs at Fresh Grounded Faith Chattanooga, TN [Episode 180]

Jennifer Rothschild: Today on the 4:13 Podcast, I am spilling the beans with some of my favorite people. And since you are one of them, I want you to join us. Liz Curtis Higgs, Michael O'Brien, and Tammy Trent joined me in Chattanooga, Tennessee, and we had a great conversation around the bistro table. Tammy Trent lost her husband to a drowning accident, and she shares what she prays when she is at her very lowest. I was asked if I ever got mad at God because of blindness, and I'll share with you my answer. And Liz Curtis Higgs, well, she weighs in about living out her faith in front of her family, and Michael O'Brien talks everything from marriage to if he wrote the song "Christmas Shoes." And finally, I share how I never ever planned to write the Psalm 23 Bible study. I'm telling you, this is some good stuff, so let's get to it.

K.C. Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you. Now, your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hello, our people. We're so happy you're here today. It's going to be a very good day. I'm Jennifer, and my goal is just to help you be and do more than you even feel capable of as you live out every single day this "I Can" life, because it is Christ's power in you that empowers you and equips you to be who he has called you to be and do what he's called you to do. And, of course, it is just two friends here in the closet, one topic --

K.C. Wright: And --

Jennifer and K.C.: -- zero stress.

Jennifer Rothschild: K.C. and I are crammed in the podcast closet. And every time we start a podcast, we pray for you and we think of you as if you are sitting across the table from us, because I really hope you are. We were sitting around the table in Chattanooga, Tennessee, at one of my Fresh Grounded Faith conferences. You can learn more about those on the show notes if you want to. But Fresh Grounded Faith is a conference I do all over the country and have different guests. And this one happened to be with the one and only Liz Curtis Higgs and Tammy Trent and Michael O'Brien. And we're going to get right to it, but I need to tell you what happened, so some of this will make sense when you start to hear it. Okay? I don't know how much you know about Tammy Trent. The woman is amazing. She lost her husband. She was a singer-songwriter. And when she lost her husband, she just -- you know, her whole world collapsed. But she talks about how God just brought her back to life and allowed her to breathe again and literally, literally turned her mourning into dancing. Okay. So when we sit down at the bistro table, what you're about to hear, Tammy Trent had just finished dancing up a storm on that stage. And she was rapping. I mean, it was absolutely phenomenal. So when you hear a few references, you'll know what it was about.

K.C. Wright: We saved you a seat at the bistro, so let's join this great conversation with Tammy, Liz, Michael, and Jennifer and, most importantly, you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yep. Well done, ladies. I'm just so blessed. I mean, what a day. And, Michael, your music -- I mean, this whole thing has been -- what a day. What a day, people. And here's the thing. Y'all have given us a lot to talk about. In fact, you gave us so many questions, we don't have time for them all, but I pulled a sampling. And, Michael, I know you'll just go through and give us -- we'll answer what we can.

Michael O'Brien: I used to dance too, by the way. Me and Tammy used to do -- we did a couple of concerts together, but then I pulled my back and I can't do it anymore. Obviously you're doing a lot better than me.

Tammy Trent: 'Cause you're 50.

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm 50.

Michael O'Brien: So who -- this seems to be a common question we get a lot. So this is to you, Jennifer. Who does Jennifer's makeup and clothes at events? And then also at home, you always look fabulous.

Jennifer Rothschild: Fabulous. Thank you. It's so funny, we do get this question all the time, and we got like four of these questions today. I do my own makeup and hair. I've got really easy hair, you guys, I think it's God's economy. Like, he knew he wasn't going to give me good eyes, so I have, like, the easiest hair to work with in the world. It's really thick and I use my fingers.

Liz Curtis Higgs: My hair is much easier.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, that's true.

Liz Curtis Higgs: My hair is much easier than yours.

Jennifer Rothschild: Your hair is much easier. I totally agree with that. But I don't always put on full makeup at home, y'all. I look, yeah, like a-- in yoga pants and a T-shirt pretty much all the time. But my mom taught me how to put on makeup when I was 15 years old, and I for the most part have kept my system. It's all counting. Like, I know how many times to count my blush brush on my blush palette, and then where to put it on my cheekbone. And the same works for mascara and eyeshadow. And all of it's just counting. And it works really well unless I lose count. And unfortunately, that has happened several times in my past. The outcome has not been very good. You'll have to read about that in my books. But I always have -- my stud husband, he always checks my makeup. And he is so careful and he just helps me in that area, and protects to make sure I did not lose count. And he's also been helping me -- I don't know about y'all. Like, my eyelashes are getting thinner, my brows, so he's helping me with all that. And I'm like, "Where in the world are these eyelashes going?" Like, where have they -- and then I notice they're right there.

Michael O'Brien: That's good. Do you mind -- I never asked you this, but how many brushes on your cheek? What's the number count?

Jennifer Rothschild: Three.

Michael O'Brien: Three? Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: Three is the daytime count, yeah.

Michael O'Brien: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: Four is for evening.

Michael O'Brien: I'm so glad I asked. Okay. This is to me. It says, "Are you responsible for the 'Christmas Shoe' song?" Okay, guys, I don't hardly ever get to share this truth part of the story. Yes, I am. I wrote the music of the bridge. But if you do go in to see who the writers are, I will not be on there.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ohhh.

Michael O'Brien: I'm not bitter about that, I'm not. It just happened the way it happened and I was new to the group. And there's another song on the project that has the exact same bridge, so you can go check it out yourself. And, of course, I've played on it and stuff like that, so...

Tammy Trent: Can I be bitter for you?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, can I?

Tammy Trent: Wow. Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: It was your voice, though.

Tammy Trent: Yeah.

Michael O'Brien: No.

Jennifer Rothschild: No?

Michael O'Brien: That's Billy Goodwin's voice.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hmm.

Michael O'Brien: Yeah.

Tammy Trent: You'd at least get 3% of that song for the bridge --

Michael O'Brien: Yeah, that'd be -- it'd been nice.

Tammy Trent: -- if you add it up. Sorry.

Michael O'Brien: Okay, Tammy. What is your fallback prayer when your heart sinks like 100 times a day?

Tammy Trent: Goodness, I don't have one set formula when I think of a prayer in that moment, I definitely have many days still where my heart sinks a million times in a day. And I think, you know, case in point for me was even the other day being in the closet with my shoes not fitting because of my fat ankles. But, you know, that was a moment for me that I had had so many different things. You know, I've got just home stuff going on that's been so disappointing, I've got, you know, different -- just things that have been -- Anita knows. She's walked this out with me for the last two weeks of disappointment after disappointment after disappointment. And so the shoes was just like the icing on the cake, and just how I felt at that moment about myself and about just life and disappointments. And I think for me, if I'm being honest, in those moments when I just want to cave, I allow myself, one, to cave. I can't tell how many times I have been in my bathroom and just hit my head onto a towel that's standing there by the shower and just sat there and sobbed and sobbed into the towel and just let it go. And sometimes the only thing that will come out of my mouth is just, "Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Tammy Trent: -- Jesus, Jesus." And I think that's why I talk about knowing the character of God, knowing the heart of God, because I don't even have to say anything but his name, and somehow, even in my pain, there's comfort in that, to know that even if everything is out of control, that God is never out of control. When things seem unknown in your life, he is a very known God. Very purposeful, intentional, timely God. So when my world is falling apart a million times in a week, in a day, in a month, whatever it is, sometimes all my prayer is is simply, "Jesus, I'm calling on you. You know what I need. I don't even know what I need. You do. And I'm going to rest in that and let go at this moment until I can come up breathing again."

Jennifer Rothschild: It's enough too.

Michael O'Brien: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: Beautiful.

Michael O'Brien: Okay. So two-part question. First part's to Jennifer. Were you ever mad at God for your blindness? And then Liz, have you ever forced people -- or have you ever faced people who hold your past against you and don't believe God changed you totally. So, Jennifer?

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, have I ever been mad at God? We get this question a lot, which I respect the fact that people want to know this, because I think it represents the struggle that a lot of people have when bad things happen. Sometimes a response can be anger toward God. So understanding that, I will tell you this: My response has never been anger toward God for blindness. Have I been super frustrated? Yes. Have I gotten impatient with God sometimes? Yes -- Lord, forgive me -- I have. I have not been angry with him, but I will tell you why. It's not because I'm a paragon of virtue. It's because God enveloped me with grace when I came to Christ as a girl at the age of nine. And I think he just captured me this grace, and through his Word I developed an understanding of his character and his kindness. And did you hear how often Raphael prayed this morning, "My Father, my Father"? I think I had a sense of God as my father, and the understanding that a good and perfect father, if he allowed blindness in my life, it has to hurt him more than it hurts me to allow that. I could never be angry toward him. I see that as a sacrifice from him for my good and growth. So that's part of it. It feels inconsistent for me to be angry toward God for that. I also believe personally that God is worthy of our respect and love and praise, and not anger. I don't believe he deserves that. He's holy and perfect, so I don't want to diminish him or elevate me by being angry. And then lastly -- let's just be super practical -- I need him. Why would I be angry at God, who is the only source of healing, hope, life, and peace for me? Why would I separate myself from him through anger? So not only does he not deserve it, but I need him, so that's pretty much why anger has not been one of my issues.

Michael O'Brien: That's good. All right, Liz.

Liz Curtis Higgs: So good. I'm sorry. What's my question?

Michael O'Brien: Have you ever faced people who hold your past against you and don't believe God changed you totally?

Liz Curtis Higgs: Oh. You know, it's interesting -- okay, I did get the question straight, and I've been thinking about it even as I'm listening to our darling girl. And I think the only people who don't believe I'm changed is my family who doesn't know Jesus. One by one, some of my brothers and sisters -- I came from a big family -- have come around. And first they came to accept that I was changed, and then they themselves began to be changed. A lot of my nephews and nieces know Jesus, so it's glory, glory, glory. I'm the youngest. So anybody here who's the youngest, you know how this works. They never see you as a grownup, for starters. You're always little fill in the blank. And in my case, they knew my wildness, so they just thought it was a new phase. Oh, today it's Jesus. You know, last week it was pot, and then it was booze, and now it's Jesus. I'm sorry, they didn't hear my testimony, so that probably kind of freaked you out. But anyway. Why waste time talking about sin? We all know what it looks like. Next. But it's taken my family a long time to actually -- they've held me most accountable. Which is great, actually, to be held accountable for what I believe. Let's see it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Interesting.

Liz Curtis Higgs: And so they do see it. But the hardest part for me is some of them still don't believe it. I have three brothers who have all died; two sisters still alive. And last year I just called each one of them and said, "I have only one question for you. Do you believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God?"

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Liz Curtis Higgs: I said, "Because I need to know how to pray for you." And both of them said, "No. Nope, don't believe." And God gave me -- I didn't freak out on the phone. I just said, "Perfect. Now I know exactly how to pray." And I said, "I hope you know that I am never going to stop talking about, sharing with you, and telling you about Jesus, and I also will never stop loving you."

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

Liz Curtis Higgs: And so I wait. But, wow, that's hard. You know, you can keep asking audiences to come and know Jesus. I just really want my two sisters --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. In Jesus' name --

Liz Curtis Higgs: -- to be there and -- so I'm not sure I answered that question.

Michael O'Brien: Yeah, I think you did.

Liz Curtis Higgs: And I don't really think -- you know --

Jennifer Rothschild: You don't care, do you?

Liz Curtis Higgs: I don't care.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, that's what I thought.

Liz Curtis Higgs: That's it, that's the truth. It's like --

Michael O'Brien: I was going to say.

Liz Curtis Higgs: -- you know, if you don't think I'm really saved, I'm so glad I don't have to answer to you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

Liz Curtis Higgs: Jesus is the only one. Isn't that awesome for all of us that's true?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Liz Curtis Higgs: He's the only one who needs to know the state of our heart.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's good.

Michael O'Brien: So this is another double Jennifer/Tammy. Jennifer, how do you choose topics or books for your next Bible study project? And, Tammy -- you've already answered this. But who is Anita? Daughter? Friend? Roommate? Sister?

Tammy Trent: She's my daughter? No. Anita is my best friend. She's a girl that walked into my life that God brought -- what a gift -- God brought into my life right when Trent died. Actually, she got to meet Trent, which is so cool that she got to meet him and spend time with him. And so she knows what I speak of, that it's legit, it's right on, and he was yummy. She said the first time she walked into the house and saw Trent, she said, "I get to have a meeting with this guy." 'Cause he was so cute, she thought. So when he went to heaven, she was there at the funeral. I didn't even know her, but I remember thinking, "Wow." And the funeral was in Michigan, I came back to Nashville, and she said, "If you need a friend, if you need somebody, I'm here." And I said, "Well, you know what? I don't even know much about the computer -- Trent's got a lot of stuff on it -- can you show me how to use the computer? And there's a sticky note on my computer that Trent left for me that says, 'I love you,' and I don't know how to find that." And so she came over and that began this incredible friendship. And then I started touring with Women of Faith and I needed help, and I said, "Look, would you leave your job and come work for me? I don't know what I can pay you, I don't know what I can give you, but maybe lots of laughs, some hugs."

Michael O'Brien: You all have to follow them --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah.

Michael O'Brien: -- on Instagram or whatever. It is ridiculously funny.

Jennifer Rothschild: It is so funny.

Michael O'Brien: Yeah.

Tammy Trent: She's my best friend. God gave me such a gift. And we love to laugh and just live authentic lives in Christ and -- what a gift. So that's who she is. And she owes me a lot of money.

Jennifer Rothschild: As you said -- you said it's always about the increase. It is. That's the increase.

Michael O'Brien: Jennifer, how do you choose your topic or books?

Jennifer Rothschild: How do I choose my Bible studies?

Michael O'Brien: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know, I don't want to over-spiritualize, but I don't feel like I choose much in life. I think I tend to respond more than choose in that I just -- I just read Scripture and I'm sensing, and whatever captures my imagination, my thought, whatever I need to know more of and learn, I just get caught up in. And the Lord has just always led me. Several years ago, before I wrote on Haggai, I had written a whole manuscript almost -- y'all will appreciate this -- my computer crashed. I had not backed it up and I lost it. And I just thought, "But that's what God wanted me to write." And I was stuck on the couch soon thereafter with the flu, and it was -- you know, my computer is my brain, and so I had nothing. And so I was just meditating on Psalm 23, and the result was the Psalm 23 Bible study. And then the Lord saved Haggai "Take Courage" for 2020 when we needed it most. So big news right now, I'm actually writing a Bible study on Amos, on the Minor Prophet Amos. And a lot of people who've read that think, "Well, why in the world would you do that?" Well, number one, it's in the Bible. And it's overlooked and I love to make these minor prophets more accessible. But really, it is full of a lot of condemnations. But I was just telling Michael at breakfast, what I'm doing in the Bible study is I'm turning every condemnation into an invitation. We want to live the Good Life, y'all, then we got to live the God Life and accept these invitations to live justly, to live chosen, to live humble, to live hopeful. All those are the invitations in Amos. So that's what I'm working on right now, and it'll be out --

Michael O'Brien: That's exciting.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- in fall of '23.

Michael O'Brien: Yeah. I like it. It's going to be great.

Jennifer Rothschild: '22?

Michael O'Brien: Yeah, 2022.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, '22. I better get busy.

Liz Curtis Higgs: Hurry up.

Jennifer Rothschild: Get busy.

Michael O'Brien: All right. So I have a question -- I have a question. This is to me. How can I be intentional in my marriage when a lot of days I just don't even want to be there? But I want it to be a strong marriage again. Okay. So you don't know my story, and we don't have time for me to get into it. But I can tell you, we were in a very dark, dark place 2001, around September 11. And we were on the brink of divorce, I was on the road with New Song, I was gone 250 days out of the year, she's raising four kids on her own. Your story is not my story. Whoever wrote this, you know, I understand that there are differences in marriages. All I can tell you is I didn't think we were going to make it. And then, but God opened my eyes to how I was failing her. And I'll say this, there's a Godly repentance that needs to happen, a Godly sorrow that leads to eternal life, not a worldly sorrow. So if the man in your life, whoever your husband is, is maybe not living that spiritual leadership role and he's more of a dictator -- or maybe he's passive. There are a lot of different roles that men play in their marriages that I always -- and I speak to men on this on a regular basis. The Word of God is our compass. It's where we go to to know how we can truly love our wives like Christ loved the church. It's not about just taking a bullet. It's so much more. And I can't get into all of this. But what I'm going to encourage you to do, this young lady, whoever it is, find something that your husband is doing well. Hopefully you'll be able to find at least one. I don't know what's going on. But usually one thing. And just pour into that for a little while and just go, you know, "Honey, I just want to let you know, thank you for providing for our family," or, "Thank you for taking the boys," or -- whatever he may be doing well, pour into that. And I believe as men -- and I think Phil and Raphael probably could attest to this -- we really do care about what our wives think. If you say something positive, that goes a long way. The negatives go way farther negative -- a positive goes really far positive. And the other thing I wanted to say, as I'm sitting here on a stage after hearing this story again -- I've heard this story probably six or seven times -- is that maybe you need some perspective. I mean, we have a young lady here who lost her husband. And it's a devastating thing to lose somebody that you love. And sometimes we just need to go, "Wow. God, you've really blessed me, and thank you for my husband," and be thankful just for the fact that you have somebody to spend the rest of your life with. Maybe you don't want to spend the rest of your life with that person right now. Pray for him. Pray that God would change his heart. If he's not in love with Jesus, that's what he needs, and ultimately that's what you got to go to. You just got to lay it before the Lord and say, "Anything that I do, I do it unto you, Lord. I do it unto you." Every meal you give him, every hug you give him, you're doing it unto the Lord. If you're miserable right now, and I just pray God will do what he needs to do. So that's what I would say.

Jennifer Rothschild: Good. Good word. Good word, Michael.

Michael O'Brien: Jennifer, tell us a bit more about how C.S. Lewis' writing helped you. What points or -- wow, she must be a doctor -- teachings did he write that helped you?

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, y'all, I won't go into --

Michael O'Brien: Sorry.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. I won't get started because I won't be able to quit. I will say this. I went through a very difficult depression about, I don't know, five, seven years ago. Mine was associated with menopause. Everything chemically went berserk. But within it, there was a systematic dismantling of everything that I had trusted and believed in. And I really was doubting my faith, I was doubting the Lord, I was doubting his existence. I was doubting everything. And I just -- even though I didn't believe in God, I asked him to give me somebody smart who I could trust, and it was C.S. Lewis that he led me to. And I began to read his books, recognized his pilgrimage. He was an atheist, he came to an understanding of just basically deism, that there was a God, but then came to faith in Christ. And literally, I just trusted him as my authoritative guide for that season. If C.S. Lewis can believe -- he's a million times smarter than me -- then I'm going to believe. And I trusted C.S. Lewis until I could really trust Jesus again, and so he will always have an affectionate place in my heart. And, of course, I love his writings so very much. If you've never read his books, I would suggest that you start with some of the Narnia series, of course. My favorite is "The Silver Chair" in the Narnia series. But I also love "The Great Divorce." And it's not about a divorce. But I love "The Great Divorce," and it's short and easy to read, so I would recommend that also.

Michael O'Brien: Okay. So we're on our last question, and so here it is. What is your life verse?

Jennifer Rothschild: Tammy, you want to go?

Tammy Trent: Well, my life verse, for obvious reasons -- well, maybe it's not obvious, but it was to me -- was Jeremiah 29:11, which is many. But for me it just -- "For I know the plans I have for you, Tammy, declares the Lord. Plans to give you a hope, a lot of hope, and a fantastic future." And I have clung to that because I've thought about Trent, obviously, and I think about heaven a lot. And so it was my life verse for so many reasons. But probably five years ago I decided to tattoo it on my wrist so that I would never forget it and I'd always see it. And God has used it so many times where people have asked me, in crazy stores, what's on my wrist or what does it mean, so I've had so many cool opportunities to talk to them just briefly about Trent. And I was just at the MAC in Macy's the other day and talked about that. We started talking about makeup and then went from that to just talking about the love of Jesus and just what I've been through. And I just give this quick little story of losing my husband on 9/11, but just the hope that God has given me and how he's brought healing into my life. And that we have such a great future when we're grounded in Christ and we are living for him and we've accepted him. All that fun stuff that I get to talk -- I get to talk about him, such a great way. But I called my mom after I got the tattoo and I said, "Mom, I got a tattoo." And she's like, "Ahh, you did?" I said, "I did." She said, "What'd you get?" I said, "I got my favorite verse, my life verse," and I told her. Then she just said this, "Honey, this is all I'm going to say, I hope it's your favorite verse forever because you got it forever."

Liz Curtis Higgs: That's the truth. Romans 5:28: "But God demonstrates his love for us in this: While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." That always takes my breath away.

Michael O'Brien: So good. Jennifer?

Jennifer Rothschild: Mine is 2 Corinthians 4:16-18. I got a couple. "Therefore, we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, but inwardly daily we are being renewed. And these light and temporary troubles are working within us a far greater weight of glory, because that which is seen is temporary" -- I'm speaking to y'all because this is your testimony -- "that which is unseen is eternal."

Liz Curtis Higgs: Yep.

Michael O'Brien: Philippians 2:5-11. Sorry, y'all, a little bit longer. It says, "Our attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus, who being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but he made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant. Being made in human likeness and being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself, became obedient to death, even death on a cross. Therefore, God exalted him to the highest place, gave him the name above every other name, that at the name of Jesus every knee would bow in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue would confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God, the Father.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, to the glory of God, the Father. And all the sisters said "Amen." Yes. Now the beans are officially spilled. Would you thank these guys. That was fantastic, y'all.

K.C. Wright: Well, the beans have been officially spilled. And if you want to read the transcript of this conversation, go to the show notes now at 413podcast.com/180, because there you will find a lot of great truth, practical encouragement around the bistro in Chattanooga, Tennessee.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. And if you want to come to a Fresh Grounded Faith conference, I will save you a seat. You can get your girlfriends and you can join me. I bet we're going to be in a city near you this year. So you'll find the tour dates on the show notes at 413podcast.com/180. Or you can go straight to freshgroundedfaith.com to get all you need.

K.C. Wright: Hey, speaking of all you need, he is with you right now.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

K.C. Wright: God is with you. Wherever you are right now, whatever matters to you in this moment at this time matters to him. He will meet your needs and empower you to be all he has called you to be, because you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

Jennifer and K.C.: And you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: K.C., I'm curious. Do you dance?

K.C. Wright: I do dance. Ellie and I have mad crazy dance-offs in our kitchen.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooo, who wins?

K.C. Wright: The best -- well, I think I got some great dad moves. But Ellie, she's getting cray cray in her older years here. She's teaching me a lot of these TikTok dances. But we don't do the TikTok thing, but we do the little dances.

Jennifer Rothschild: You go.

K.C. Wright: But in our home, the kitchen floor is our dance floor. It's the biggest room in the house, so...

Jennifer Rothschild: That's awesome.