4:13 Podcast: Spill the Beans LIVE with Katherine Wolf at Fresh Grounded Faith Atlanta, GA [Episode 272]

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, this is Jennifer. I want you to meet somebody. She's my precious girl that I sponsor through Compassion International. She's a little girl from Ecuador, who has no dad, but she has a Heavenly Father who is meeting her every need.

If you're like me, you can feel overwhelmed with all the needs of the world. Covid-19 has affected all of us, but it has devastated those who already live in poverty. You know, we can't do everything, but we can do one thing, and that's what Compassion International allows us to do. It's a one-on-one relationship with a child who needs you, and it releases children from poverty in Jesus' name.

So go to 413podcast.com/Compassion to meet my precious girl from Ecuador. And while you're there, I invite you, I challenge you, and I encourage you to sponsor a child along with me. That's 413podcast.com/Compassion. And now it's time for some practical encouragement and some Biblical wisdom on The 4:13.

What inspires you? What has been the hardest lesson you've ever learned? Those are some great questions, right? Well, I'm in Atlanta with Katherine Wolf at a Fresh Grounded Faith, and those were just two of the questions that we answered. Author Katherine Wolf is a powerhouse, who lives life in a wheelchair due to a stroke when she was in her 20s. And that woman has so much wisdom and so much joy. We were asked about living with disability and if we ever struggled with comparisons because of it. Also, somebody even asked -- and you're not going to believe this -- about how to deal with teenagers who are struggling with gender dysphoria. Ooh, I'm just saying, these were some really sizzling beans that we spilled.

But that's not all. Former lead singer of Newsong, Michael O'Brien, is with us at The Bistro and, good news, he is going to end this podcast with a powerful song that you do not want to miss. This was one interesting, multi-textured, inspiring conversation. So get ready. It's time to Spill the Beans.

K.C. Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and Biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, my soul sister --

Jennifer Rothschild: Soul sister.

K.C. Wright: -- Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, friends. Glad you're here. I wonder if you're busy, because it's Thanksgiving next week and that's usually a busy time. But glad you've made time to spend 30 minutes with me and K.C. and some of our other friends who are going to be spilling the beans. It's going to be a really fun, good life-giving episode. So whatever you're doing, getting ready for the big holiday if you're listening here in America, I hope it's going well for you.

K.C., are you cooking this year? I know you have done that in the past.

K.C. Wright: Yes. I am the cook in the family. I love to do gatherings and I love making meals to make people happy. Now, last year I catered.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's the way I like to cook.

K.C. Wright: I took a vacay in my mind and in my kitchen and I said, you know what? I am going to buy Thanksgiving. And it was a terrible mistake.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, really? It wasn't that good?

K.C. Wright: The stuffing was terrible, the turkey was bleh. Everything was -- while you're eating it going, you know what? This food has no flavor and I'm not catering again.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So you are going to cook, then?

K.C. Wright: Well, I got to bring my stuff to it. Because I'm like, my food tastes better than this catering.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah. I gotcha. I gotcha.

I remember a few years ago, I transitioned from doing the big ol' turkey to doing just the little turkey breasts. And if I had more people than could eat off of one breast, then I would buy two or three of them, whatever it took.

K.C. Wright: Hey, have you ever -- have you guys -- has the Rothschilds -- have you ever done, like, a Thanksgiving dinner where you've gone pizza or Italian --

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

K.C. Wright: -- or Mexican --

Jennifer Rothschild: Have you done that?

K.C. Wright: No. Or Chinese?

Jennifer Rothschild: I have friends who do that all the time. They pick a theme.

K.C. Wright: Me too. Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: No. I'm sorry, I'm just a little traditional.

K.C. Wright: Me too. I'm turkey, stuffing --

Jennifer Rothschild: Me too.

K.C. Wright: -- taters, pumpkin pie.

Jennifer Rothschild: Because I'm not going to eat that during the rest of the year. But I will eat lasagna --

K.C. Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: - you know. So yeah.

K.C. Wright: I only eat turkey once a year.

Jennifer Rothschild: Same.

K.C. Wright: Thanksgiving.

Jennifer Rothschild: Maybe I'll do it at Christmas too. Yeah, that's about it.

K.C. Wright: What do you do at Christmas?

Jennifer Rothschild: Either turkey or ham.

K.C. Wright: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. I do similar meals, both of those.

K.C. Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Because it just feels so traditional to me. It's funny. It's how we grew up, you know.

K.C. Wright: Yeah, it is.

Jennifer Rothschild: It is. I think I've told you maybe before that it was Christmas, and Phil was supposed to go pick up the Honey Baked ham, and he decided he wanted to save a few dollars. This was on Christmas Eve. He showed up with a Boston Market rotisserie chicken. I thought I was going to kill him on Christmas. I was so upset with him. So it's been the family joke ever since, Mom is very serious about her meat on holidays. Do not veer from the menu. Anyway, I didn't kill him, obviously. I love him. And it gave us the greatest story to tell over and over and over and over.

Okay. Well, we're going to head to Atlanta for this Spill the Beans. But I got to tell you, we've got a treat for you. Michael O'Brien is going to end this podcast today with a song. And he's so gracious to always let me use his songs. This one today is called "The Solid Rock." You'll recognize the lyrics. This comes from his CD, "Psalms, Hymns, and Spiritual Songs," which is one of my very favorite. So stay tuned for the very end so that you can hear it, because you're going to want it. And you can get it. You can go to iTunes, Spotify, you can go to his website. We'll have links for you for all that. But anyway, I just want you to know you're going to hear from Michael O'Brien also.

So, K.C., let's get ready to spill.

K.C. Wright: Katherine Wolf is a survivor and storyteller and advocate and -- here's my favorite -- an evangelist. I love her heart. She's the author of several books, including her first called "Hope Heals," which she wrote with her husband, Jay. Katherine uses her story to encourage so many broken bodies, broken brains, and broken hearts. She and Jay live in Atlanta with their two sons, James and John.

Of course, Fresh Grounded Faith would not be complete with our man, Michael O'Brien.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's right. We always have Michael.

K.C. Wright: He is the man. Michael, we love you. You know him, but I will give a quick intro anyway to this man of God, this MOG. Michael O'Brien was the former lead singer of Newsong. He's an incredible musician, recording artist, singer-songwriter, worship leader. He lives in Virginia with his beautiful wife, which he loves so much. I love how he loves his wife, Heidi.

Jennifer Rothschild: He does.

K.C. Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love -- he talks about her from stage all the time. Yeah, Heidi.

K.C. Wright: Now, together let's do one of my favorite podcasts right now where we Spill the Beans. Pull up a chair to this conversation. You're going to love it.

Michael O'Brien: All right, this is to everybody here. What inspires you?

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh, what inspires you? Do you have a good answer?

Katherine Wolf: Oh. Well, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. What inspires you?

Katherine Wolf: Like, I don't have a good answer, but I have plenty of answers that -- goodness. People who take hard life stuff and live well with it and you haven't bought into a lie that life's going to be good and there's no problems or pain. But people who say, no, there's pain and I can persevere and press on. And I want to be faithful in this story no matter what it looks like.

Jennifer Rothschild: I agree with you. People inspire me. People who are kind, people who do hard things. People inspire me. But also what inspires me is seeing the gift of God in people. Like, Michael, when you sing, like, that -- I'm like, he's not going to hit that note today, he's not -- dude, he hit the note. I mean, the beauty, the creativity. Just seeing the beauty of God in people when they use their gift, that inspires me.

Michael O'Brien: I'm going to say, obviously, especially today, just both of you. I've known Jennifer for a long time. I met her at an Extraordinary Women conference. And when I saw Jennifer and Phil together not on stage, like backstage, I was so touched by -- and I've always said this to them -- that they just have a beauty together. And just how Phil is with her and how, Jennifer, you are with Phil. And I'm just getting to know Katherine, and I've heard her a couple of times. And I think it's connected to what you said, Katherine, just seeing people with hardships glorifying God, that brings inspiration.

Jennifer Rothschild: It does.

Katherine Wolf: Well, I just have to add that -- I think I've done this Fresh Grounded Faith in Missouri, California, Alabama, and now Georgia, and this picture speaks deeply to my soul, because I know that a person experiencing the disability of blindness and a person in a wheelchair is this powerful picture for you of brokenness and wholeness.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Yes.

Katherine Wolf: And this -- don't miss this. You know, I talked about not wanting to just be an inspiration. But if you are awesome -- because the truth is, we all need this. We need to know a lady who's blind and the lady who can't walk can give glory to God in their story, and that is inspiration.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's so deep. That's beautiful. Because I was also going to add -- okay, but Lionel Riche and C. S. Lewis inspire me also.

Katherine Wolf: Totally. Yes, yes, 100%.

Michael O'Brien: (Singing) Hello. Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: (Singing) Hello.

Michael O'Brien: So this is to everybody as well. What's been the hardest lesson for you to learn and accept?

Jennifer Rothschild: The hardest lesson for us to learn or accept. I can tell you this. I think the hardest lesson I've learned is the one I haven't learned. I'm still learning. And this is so embarrassing to say it, but I'll say it. Humility. I still am always learning humility. And it's the hardest lesson because I -- man, can I stand with a fist. Man, can my pride just jump up and be in charge. And so that one is the one I'm still learning that is hard.

Katherine Wolf: For sure. I think I will be learning for life all about how I am both capable and incapable at the very same time, and that tension. And that is very difficult. We, in the Western world in particular, want to think we can have it all, do it all, be it all. And we can't. And we can do incredibly hard things because of Jesus and our story -- I believe that to the core -- but there are limits on our lives. And we want to think everything is available all the time, and it's very painful to say, no, it's not. And the truth is, it's not. It will be one day, but that's not today.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's a hard good lesson.

Katherine Wolf: Yeah.

Michael O'Brien: Mine is probably Ephesians 5. "Husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church." So it's a very high calling to not just serve your wife, but also in such a way make sure that she is taken care of not only physically, but her soul. And I think a lot of times we just think, hey, I'll take a bullet for you. You know, that's the physical side, you know, you would protect them from any kind of physical harm. But the spiritual side is much deeper and goes much -- there's a lot of roots to that. And so I'm -- to learn how to do that daily -- I have a very strong wife. You've met her, Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm afraid of her.

Michael O'Brien: She's very strong --

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm just kidding.

Michael O'Brien: And she is learning herself to kind of -- the other day this is what happened. We have a song that we dance to every year. It's Celine Dion's Christmas song. I don't even remember the name of it. But any time it's played, we run into the room and we start dancing.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh.

Michael O'Brien: And for so many times, I've -- I mean, I've just been very -- not taking charge of leading her when we dance. And then this one time -- it happened this year, 2022 -- I just went in there and I led her. And she twirled and we danced and she's like, "What's happening?"

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh.

Michael O'Brien: And it was just a picture of, "So that's what it's like."

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Michael O'Brien: And so anyway --

Jennifer Rothschild: That's good.

Michael O'Brien: I know that may sound weird to you guys, but that was a big moment for us.

Jennifer Rothschild: No. This is a bunch of girls. We just love that. That was awesome.

Michael O'Brien: Okay, this is to you, Jennifer and Katherine. How did you adjust to living with a disability? Did you ever struggle with comparison or resentment?

Jennifer Rothschild: I -- did I ever? Yes. Yes, did I struggle with comparison and resentment. Not resentment so much; but comparison, yes. But here's how it played out in my life. Well, if a sighted woman can do it, I can do it, and I can do it better.

And that is so dumb, y'all. That is so dumb. Because what you just expressed is true. There are limitations. The thing is -- and I would assume you would relate to this. The person who lives inside my body is completely capable. Like, I could do -- I just believe, because of the way I was raised and the way I'm wired, I could do whatever the thing is. If I didn't know how, I would research it, I would learn it, and I figured out I could do it. But my body does not allow that.

And so the comparison thing, I think there was such an identity slam that came with it for me that, yes, comparison was a hard thing. I'm over it now because, no, there's a lot of things sighted people could do better. But here's the thing. There's a lot of things that blind women can do better than me. Why? Because we have different gifts, callings, and wiring. So that's cool.

So, yeah, it's not as much a thing for me anymore. I'm more competitive with myself than I am comparing myself against others. But, yeah, that was probably a thing for me a lot more early on.

Katherine Wolf: Yeah. I would say, yeah, comparison has been haunting. I can't do so many things that, you know, a healthy, able-bodied mother could do for my kids. I can't even drive a car. I don't know if I said that. So, yes, it could be horrific to compare myself constantly. But I feel like -- and because my situation has been so extreme, it's probably almost made it easier because it's like I'm not really wanting to drive a car. Like, that's not available. So it's helped some.

But I will say that I think there is such tremendous wisdom in not wishing for her story because we bought the lie that the grass is greener. Because the grass isn't greener. First of all, her life is probably a mess. But when I'm doing that, my grass is round and dying because all I'm doing is watching hers and not watering mine. So, of course, I'm like, I want her life because my grass is brown and hers is green. But, no, I can have the green grass, and it may look different than hers. And that's okay. I've got my lane and I cannot ever do her life, but I'm going to do a blessed Katherine Wolf's life.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's right, girl.

Katherine Wolf: And I think that is a word for us all is we're never going to be this or that. But why are we trying to be?

Jennifer Rothschild: That's right.

Katherine Wolf: We're going to be who God made us to be.

Jennifer Rothschild: Besides, it takes a heck of a lot of manure to make some green grass.

Katherine Wolf: Yeah. Isn't that right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Let's just say there's some stinky fertilizer that goes into some green grass.

Katherine Wolf: That's the truth.

Jennifer Rothschild: You're welcome.

All right. Next?

Michael O'Brien: That's very inspiring.

Okay. When interacting with teenagers struggling with gender dysphoria, how do we as parents, grandparents, teachers, youth workers, et cetera, share grace while still enforcing Biblical standards? Example, restricting a girl, who feels like she is a boy, from going in the boy's bathroom.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, there are certain questions you get asked that you think, "I'd rather not answer," because the risk of getting a sound bite grabbed and taken and used against you is high right now. All right?

So the theme of this weekend is grace, grace, grace. And I felt like the Lord led us to answer this question, not because I feel like I have an answer. And maybe that's why. Because we do want to show grace. Yet Jesus was 100% grace and 100% truth. So what we as the body of Christ -- I believe our high calling is to extend the grace of Jesus without sacrificing truth. And if we really extend the grace of Jesus -- because someone who is going through what they are with gender dysphoria, there's usually a brokenness that is deeper than something that we can see. There is a great seeking and need there. So to show grace toward the seeking and the need hopefully will give us an opportunity for relationship. Within that relationship, perhaps we can be a voice that can encourage that person to show the same grace that they are being extended.

In other words, instead of perhaps someone who -- I get so confused with the terminology, so please do not be offended if I mess this up. A girl who thinks she's a boy and, therefore, wants to use the boys' restroom, whatever, perhaps we can communicate to that person with that confusion, could you please show the same grace to others. And if it makes the women in a women's restroom uncomfortable, because you were born a man, to be in that restroom, please extend the same grace to them that we are extending to you and use a different or a single bathroom.

You know, I think there's ways we can communicate and show grace. That doesn't mean we overlook truth and that doesn't mean we don't have boundaries. That is, we love each other well when we love each other with truth and boundaries, and that can coexist with grace. It's a hard thing. We need the wisdom of Christ and the love of Jesus.

Katherine Wolf: Yeah. Whoa, yeah, you said it all. I don't know what to add to that except cultivating an incredible amount of compassion in these conversations is so key. You know, I think as Christians, we really lose our audience when we start just making ultimatums and not looking people in the eye and saying there's got to be so much pain to this story --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, there is.

Katherine Wolf: -- and I can engage this story well. God has equipped me powerfully to do this work of hanging in there with you. I love you deeply and I'm not leaving. And that is -- I think that is the work Christ calls us to, is to stay in hard stories and situations with our friends who may be experiencing a whole gamut of really tough stuff.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, it's hard. Much grace.

Michael O'Brien: I would also just add that I think sometimes we can be so combative and we just fly off at the mouth because we see something on social media or whatever. I've been guilty of this myself. Doing life with people, whoever God has put into your circle, if you end up having somebody like that, to be able to do life with them. And the Word is really clear about how we're supposed to treat. It's with gentleness, with all humility -- the word you were talking about earlier -- with patience, bearing one another in love. It is much easier to say that than it is to walk it out with somebody. And I think the walking out process is the important one, because if they can see on a daily basis that you're hearing them, but you're also speaking truth and what the Word teaches about it, it's going to come across much more loving than it would be if I go -- and I just basically say it and walk away. So we can take great care when we're dealing with that situation. But like you said, don't forfeit the truth.

Jennifer Rothschild: Don't forfeit -- and don't expect that just because you handle it right, that it will end well.

Michael O'Brien: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: And that's the sad thing.

Michael O'Brien: And that's the other thing. Because a lot of times if you're really walking in the Lord, not everybody's going to like you.

Jennifer Rothschild: No, it may not be -- right. They're just -- it may not be the answer they want, and so...

Michael O'Brien: Man, these women are obsessed with this.

Okay, Jennifer, this is to you again. This is a light question. How do you put on your makeup?

Jennifer Rothschild: Somebody did ask me with my story how I said I threw it up in the air and it landed on my face. I wish that's how I put on my makeup. No. My mom taught me when I was 15 -- when I lost my sight is when she had told me I was allowed to wear makeup. And so, of course, she didn't expect that I wouldn't be able to see then. But she came up with a system, and I still use it today. And it's all counting, so I know how many times to put my now bronzer and blush on my cheekbone, and where, how many count to do, and mascara. And it all works as long as I don't lose count.

Katherine Wolf: You're amazing.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I won't tell you the story now, but you can read it in my books. I have lost count before, and the end is not a good result. But it works really well. The only problem is -- so, like, today I don't have them on, but, you know, your lashes get thinner as you get older. And I've been putting on mascara and I'll be like, Oh, my gosh, where did they go? And then I feel my chin.

So anyway, Phil, my stud husband, learned how to put on false eyelashes, and so he often will put false eyelashes on for me to give me a little bit of [clicks tongue and bats eyelashes] when I'm on stage.

Michael O'Brien: That's fascinating. Fascinating. Once again, Phil.

All right, this is to all. What verse speaks to your heart?

Jennifer Rothschild: What verse speaks to your heart. You got one, Michael?

Michael O'Brien: Oh, Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, Philippines 2, Michael.

Michael O'Brien: I do love it because it's wrapped up in this humility thing. "Our attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but he made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. Being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself, became obedient to death, even death on a cross. Therefore God exalted him to the highest place, gave him the name above every other name, that at the name of Jesus every knee would bow in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue would confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father."

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. I love that so much. That speaks to my heart, and it speaks to my heart when you quote it. Thank you.

All right, Katherine, I'm going to say mine just because -- I'm going first because I'm afraid you're going to take the same one.

Katherine Wolf: Okay. Okay, go ahead. Go ahead.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. So here's what speaks to my heart. 2 Corinthians 4:16-18.

Katherine Wolf: Oh, I --

Jennifer Rothschild: See, you would have taken it. "Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, inwardly daily we are being renewed. And our light and temporary troubles are working within us a far greater weight of glory. For that which is seen is temporary, and that which is unseen is eternal."

Katherine Wolf: And I can piggyback off of that and say one of my very favorite passages is just a few verses up. 2 Corinthians 4:6-9 says, "We are hard pressed, but we are not crushed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; we are persecuted, but never abandoned; struck down, but not destroyed. We always carry in our bodies the death of Jesus so that the life of Jesus might also be revealed in our bodies."

Aren't we the team? Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Enough said.

Katherine Wolf: Yeah, that's it. I just hope you feel the magnitude of what just happened. Like, that's -- when a lady that's blind and a lady who can't walk share that they are hard pressed and not crushed and that what is outer is wasting away, that is some gold for your life. Take that home.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Michael O'Brien: So good.

All right, Jennifer. If you had not become blind, do you think you'd be a teacher today? Do you think you'd do these conferences and produce such great Bible studies?

Jennifer Rothschild: I thought that was an interesting question. If I were not blind, basically would I be doing what I'm doing with the gifts that I have? You heard Katherine say earlier that sometimes your suffering is your superpower. I will tell you this. Without the thorn of blindness, I believe I had the potential of being a very isolated, independent woman who's going to get it done my way in my time. Because I had enough native gifting or intellect, I could have gotten so full of myself and satisfied with myself. And I do see blindness as this buffeting gift, this thorn that was a protection against myself. Whether God ever chose to use it to buffet my native gifts and refine them or not, it was his mercy toward me. Because people who are full of themselves are not happy people. People who are overly controlling are not happy people. People who are impatient are not happy people. And so in many ways, I cannot -- I do not understand the sovereignty of God, so I don't speak toward it like I do, but I cannot imagine that I would be doing what I'm doing today without blindness as being a pathway I never intended to walk.

Michael O'Brien: Katherine, your episode on She Reads Truth --

Katherine Wolf: Wait. I've got to say an answer to the other one first, though.

Jennifer Rothschild: Michael, she's in charge.

Michael O'Brien: Okay. Yeah, you got it.

Katherine Wolf: Yeah, yeah. No, I -- just really quick, I have to tell y'all -- this is just so cool. I from a very young age was wired to talk to anybody who would listen -- they called me Chatty Cathy for real -- about Jesus, hope, justice. I mean, I was talking about, like, the Civil Rights Movement to my dollies in my closet at age five. I mean, it was weird.

And I majored in communication in college. Once I had the massive stroke and became disabled, I could have seen all of those just talents, desires, passions go to the wayside. Like, why would I do anything like this with my life? My face is paralyzed. I'm not going to be on the stage. I can't even walk. You get it. And yet somehow in the -- I don't understand it, but somehow God has worked it out that these dreams that I dreamed as a child have full circle come true in my adult life in a completely different way than I ever would have imagined, that from the position of a wheelchair, which is the perfect place to speak about his strength and our weakness. FYI, I get to share the truth of God in the land of the living. It's glorious.

But that wasn't your question, and I'm so sorry, Michael.

Jennifer Rothschild: But it was such a good answer.

Katherine Wolf: I know, right? It's so cool.

Jennifer Rothschild: It needed to be said.

Michael O'Brien: We still needed it.

Katherine, your episode on She Reads Truth in August changed my heart. How do you live out Psalm 84:11 daily?

Katherine Wolf: Oh, my gosh, I love that. That's what I mean, like, all of you people just so tracking and touching. I've done a lot of podcasts. That's random. But I'm here for it and I --

Jennifer Rothschild: Do you remember Psalm 84:11?

Katherine Wolf: Psalm 84:11 says, "No good thing has he withheld from those walking uprightly with him." And that's super complicated, super complicated in all of our stories, because the way we understand God not withholding good things would be that our lives look really good, right? That I look good, I feel good, I've got the goods. That is the good life. So where's God? Has God withheld good things when people don't have that stuff? Like, is there goodness?

And I was turned on to a brilliant theologian from the 1600's named Sir Richard Baker, who wrote the following, and it's absolutely changed my life and understanding. That the truly good things of God can never be withheld because they are not things at all. They are peace of conscience, joy in the Holy Spirit, the fruition of his presence in this life, and the assurance of his face in the next. These things are the truly good things that can never be taken from us.

K.C. Wright: The hard things can be the good things for sure. This was one of my favorite Spill the Beans ever. Katherine Wolf, rock star.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right?

K.C. Wright: Her depth and her joy, totally inspiring. And I got to say, Michael O'Brien is the man. I am always challenged by his strength, his love for the Word, his love for his family, and downright humility.

So if you haven't read Katherine's books yet, you need to. We will have links to Katherine's books and Michael's music and, of course, Jennifer's books at the Show Notes right now at 413podcast.com/272. And you can read a transcript there as well.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Plus, we will also link you to the She Reads Truth Podcast that Katherine talked about.

But now we get to hear from Michael O'Brien. He is going to sing us out and remind you that no matter what you face or how you feel, you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength, because he is your Solid Rock.

Michael O'Brien: (Singing) My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus' blood and righteousness; I dare not trust the sweetest frame, but wholly lean on Jesus' name. When darkness veils his lovely face, I rest on his unchanging grace; in every high and stormy gale, my anger holds within the veil. On Christ, the Solid Rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand, all other ground is sinking sand.

When he shall come with trumpet sound, oh, may I then in him be found; dressed in his righteousness alone, faultless to stand before the throne. On Christ, the Solid Rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand. All other ground is sinking sand.

On Christ, the Solid Rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand, all other ground is sinking sand. On Christ, the Solid Rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand, all other ground is sinking sand. On Christ, the Solid Rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand, all other ground is sinking sand.