4:13 Podcast: Can I Have a Real Relationship With the Holy Spirit? With Costi Hinn [Episode 313]

Costi Hinn: In, like, our worship services or music things where people say, you know, Holy Spirit, please come, or, We just invite you here right now, we ask that you would be in this place. And, of course, we know what most of the time people are saying. They're recognizing God, they're asking him to work, and it's supposed to be a posture of humility. But what if -- here's my pastoral pet peeve. I don't want people insecure in that moment, if they're a believer, hoping he'll come, begging him to come, and pleading that, man, if he just feels right about it and we get the music right and the feeling right and the notes right and the lights right and we pray the right thing, man, he'll show up. I want to just go to people that are insecure or hoping in that moment and go, You look at me and you listen so closely. He is inside of you. You don't need to ask him to come, you just need to say, Holy Spirit, thank you for being present. Thank you for taking over my life. And then pray in line with Scripture, Bear your fruit in me today.

Jennifer Rothschild: What does the Bible really say about the Holy Spirit? And what does it mean to see the power of the Holy Spirit in your life? Well, whether it's on purpose or not, lots of Christians, well, we look for maybe health, wealth, and happiness by calling on the Holy Spirit as if he is, like, this cosmic butler there to meet our every need. And then if things don't go our way, we can wonder, hmm, is the Holy Spirit even real? And if he is, what is he there for anyway? Oh, my friends, it does not have to be this way, because that is not who the Holy Spirit is to us.

Today author and pastor Costi Hinn is going to show you why a relationship with the Holy Spirit is the most important next step on your journey as a believer in Christ. He's going to use clear and sound interpretation of Scripture to help you clarify who the Holy Spirit is, and he's going to also answer all sorts of questions about him. You are going to love this conversation, so let's get started.

K.C. Wright: Welcome, welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, friends. It is Jennifer sitting right here, and my goal is to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you are living this "I Can" life of Philippians 4:13. You know, every now and then I have to remind us what that verse is. It is not our magic superpower. It is not a sugar pill. It's written in context where Paul is writing in Philippians 4 about being content. And he describes that he's been in really great situations and very difficult situations, but he has learned the secret of contentment. And it is what? I can do all things through Christ who gives me strength.

So the two most important words in that verse are not "I can." The two most important words in that verse are "through Christ." It is his strength in us. And you're going to hear today how it is through the empowerment of the Holy Spirit that we are able to say "I can" and we are able to experience all the strength of Christ. And I cannot wait for you to hear this conversation. I thought it was so good, so grounded, so enlightening, so needed. So needed, my people.

But, K.C., you needed something this week. Well, you didn't. Ellie did.

K.C. Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: So you got to tell our people what's going on with you and Ellie and where you ended up. You're going to love this story, my people.

K.C. Wright: So Ellie's my daughter, and she's 13. And she had a big little event at her school, and she needed her nails done.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, because girls do.

K.C. Wright: And a dress.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

K.C. Wright: And her hair.

Jennifer Rothschild: And shoes.

K.C. Wright: And shoes. We went to five places. And I told her, I said, "I'm not going to five places," and we went to five places looking for these shoes.

Jennifer Rothschild: You're a good daddy.

K.C. Wright: Anyway, so while she was getting her nails done, you know, you are approached several times sitting there with your daughter, "Would you like your feet done?" "Would you like your toes done?" And I kept telling the sweet, sweet ladies at this nail salon, "No, thank you. No, thank you." I've never had my feet done. And then all of a sudden, I started thinking about self-care and how I was just going to sit there scrolling on my phone --

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh, not good.

K.C. Wright: -- and my eyes were going to get crossed. And I said, you know what? Let's go big. "How much is it?" "Thirty dollar." And I'm like, "Let's roll."

Jennifer Rothschild: Good. You got a pedicure?

K.C. Wright: So -- oh, man, I got my first ever pedicure, and I am -- I have been apologizing to my feet ever since because --

Jennifer Rothschild: For their mistreatment?

K.C. Wright: Our feet people too, and they matter. And why have I not been taking care of these feet? Anyway, I'm very ticklish, so that was my favorite part, watching this gal scrub the bottom of my foot. And I was like, Oh, gosh. I was squirming like a two-year-old.

Jennifer Rothschild: Funny.

K.C. Wright: But anyway, it was the greatest thing. My feet are now saved.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, good.

K.C. Wright: But why don't we take care of our feet, men? We need to do this. I mean, I really feel like a pedicure should happen a couple times a year now.

Jennifer Rothschild: It definitely should.

K.C. Wright: Because we don't focus on the feet.

Jennifer Rothschild: No. And they're holding you up.

K.C. Wright: We just wash everything else.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Oh, so I did read something about that --

K.C. Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- like, this survey of how many people wash the bottom of their feet

Jennifer Rothschild: when they shower. Not very many.

K.C. Wright: Not many, no.

Jennifer Rothschild: I do.

K.C. Wright: I don't.

Jennifer Rothschild: You --

K.C. Wright: No, no.

Jennifer Rothschild: K.C., it's because you're a man.

K.C. Wright: Yeah. But I'm telling you, the day before the pedicure I also helped my mom decorate a table for a banquet. So one day I'm decorating a table with these women, the next day I'm getting a pedicure. I called my buddy Isaac, and I go, "Isaac, today, you and me, we're going to go kill someone, and I'm growing" -- hold on.

Jennifer Rothschild: You're not going to kill someone.

K.C. Wright: I said, "Isaac" -- I called my friend Isaac and I said, "Isaac, today, you and I, we're going to go kill an animal." Let's go hunting and I'm going to grow this beard out, because I've cashed in all my man cards.

Jennifer Rothschild: You're right. I am masculine, people.

K.C. Wright: We need bacon, beards, and a hunting trip ASAP.

Jennifer Rothschild: See, there you go. And that way when you get back from the hunting trip, you can get a pedicure.

Hey, I got a pedicure once -- you're not going to believe this. Okay. So I was in London. This was many years ago.

K.C. Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. You know how much I love C. S. Lewis.

K.C. Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And it was the C. S. Lewis Institute. It was the first time I went. I went with my friend Lisa Whelchel. Remember Lisa Whelchel from The Facts of Life?

K.C. Wright: (singing) You take the good, you take the bad, take them both --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

K.C. Wright: Yes. I had a crush on her.

Jennifer Rothschild: Every young man did.

K.C. Wright: Yes, yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And -- I have a crush on her for different reasons. She is one of the most brilliant, lovely, grace-filled women I know. She is just a dear friend.

So anyway, we're in -- before the conference starts in Oxford, we go to London. And she's like, "I wanted to find something" -- because if you all don't know this, I'm blind. So she's like, "I want to find something that you would really enjoy that's different, that's very sensory." So she did all this research. Now, I don't know that they do these anymore, because I think they were discovered to be maybe not very health safe. But she said, "We're going to go get a fish pedicure." Have you ever heard of this?

K.C. Wright: I've seen them.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

K.C. Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: So this was in London. We go to this little -- posh little shop.

K.C. Wright: Of course.

Jennifer Rothschild: And we both sit next to each other, and we put our feet in this pedicure bin, like an aquarium, and literally these fish all start sucking on your feet.

K.C. Wright: Oh, no. I couldn't. No way.

Jennifer Rothschild: It was so freaky. You talk about squealing and jumping and...

K.C. Wright: Oh, my goodness.

Jennifer Rothschild: So, yeah, we had a fish pedicure.

K.C. Wright: How did your feet feel after?

Jennifer Rothschild: Great.

K.C. Wright: After the fish cleaning?

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah. Because they like -- ooh, it's so gross. But they do, they like to feed on your calluses and dead skin.

K.C. Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. It's not a very --

K.C. Wright: Isn't that something?

Jennifer Rothschild: -- beautiful thing to talk about, and especially --

K.C. Wright: I hope it wasn't expensive.

Jennifer Rothschild: I don't know. She paid. That was very nice of her. But anyway, it was one of the funnest memories of my life.

K.C. Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: But it did feel very freaky weird.

K.C. Wright: Oh, my goodness.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. So then I had to go, like, have some proper tea and scones after that.

K.C. Wright: Now, this may be TMI, but do you get pedicures a lot?

Jennifer Rothschild: I do.

K.C. Wright: You do? Good. My mom does. She loves them.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. So, like, when you did one, of course, they don't polish your toes.

K.C. Wright: No.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. We girls do that. Because when we're wearing sandals in the summer, we got to -- you know.

K.C. Wright: Now, do you do a mani and a pedi at the same time --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

K.C. Wright: -- or you go back? Oh, at the same time?

Jennifer Rothschild: I do. But only because I get my nails done every two weeks just because...

K.C. Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so Kim, who has been my nail tech for, gosh, 20 years -- we've even worked it out now that she puts a little pedicure bucket under the nail desk and, like, I lift my foot up onto her lap so -- because I'm like, I don't need the chair, I just need the thing done. So we just sit there and do the whole thing all at once. It's like a one-stop shop.

K.C. Wright: This is so true, and I tell people this all the time. But I'll come over to record the podcast with Jennifer, the only thing I've done is brush my teeth and thrown on some gym clothes. And I got a ball cap on. And when I get here, Jennifer's always -- everyone talks about your style all the time. She looks like she's about ready to walk a runway. And I'm like, "What are you doing today?" and she's like, "Staying home."

Jennifer Rothschild: You're very generous. That is not --

K.C. Wright: No, you always look so nice. You got your nails did, your hair done.

Jennifer Rothschild: I've got easy hair. Literally, I got easy hair, and my nails are done by someone else. So really, I wake up half done. All right, my people. Sorry we indulged too long there with the pedicures. But now you need to go get one and let us know what you think.

K.C. Wright: That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, let's talk about the Holy Spirit. Let's go deep with Costi.

K.C. Wright: Costi Hinn is the founding and teaching pastor at Shepherd's House Bible Church in Chandler, Arizona. He's the founder and president of For the Gospel. He has authored several books, including his latest book called "Knowing the Spirit." Costi and his wife, Christyne, are the parents of five beautiful children.

This is going to be a powerful, powerful podcast. Pull up a chair, there's room at the table for you. Here's Costi and Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Costi. In your book "Knowing the Spirit," you share this statistic that really surprised me, that 58% of people who say they are Christians do not believe the Holy Spirit is real or exists. Okay, so that kind of struck me. So first of all let's start with this. Tell us who the Holy Spirit is and then why you think this statistic actually is true.

Costi Hinn: Well, it's a great question, and an important one, because I believe -- and I'm sure you do too -- and if anyone's listening and you're thinking what should I believe as a Christian and what --- like, what's a deal breaker for heaven, for hell, for what would be acceptable as far as the Gospel, we would call it Trinitarian Theology. Those are $10 words, but I'll -- I like simple, so let me define those.

The Trinity, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, is a -- even though the word "Trinity" is not in the Bible, it is an entirely truthful and Christian biblical concept and presentation of our God, who's the Godhead, three in one. I'm sure some people have sung songs with that phrase in there. The Father is God; the Son, Jesus Christ, is God; and the Holy Spirit is God. And I think so many times we envision the Father maybe in our minds -- it makes sense that he's a Father. It's personal, and so people understand that. And then you've got Jesus. Of course, the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. Christ came to earth as a man, John 1:14. And so we can imagine that, Jesus came.

But the Holy Spirit is abstract, I think, in the human mind. We're like, What is he? What does he look like? And so he becomes this less than. So to answer the question who is the Holy Spirit, I have to say what the Bible teaches, which is, number one, he is God. And I took a decent amount of time in the first chapter to lay that out for people. He's in the Old Testament, he's in the New. He's there in creation, he's there at the culmination or the consummation of all things, and we can rest assured that he's God.

And the second thing, he's a person. And the Bible paints a picture, a very clear expression, feelings, activities, all that relate to a person or the person of the Holy Spirit. We can grieve him. His personhood is seen through his feelings about sin, his feelings about unrighteousness. Also his work in sealing us and calling us and sanctifying us. That means to cleanse us of sin. And if anybody listening has ever felt that feeling in the middle of maybe a sermon at church or listening to a podcast or listening to this podcast or reading a book and you feel that kind of gut-wrenching twisting in your stomach, and the lump in your throat is there, you're thinking, I need to change, like, this -- okay, this is for me, or he or she is talking to me or writing to me, that's the Holy Spirit's activity, his work in our hearts. And that cleanses us and it changes us and we think, I want to change. Where does that come from? It comes from the person of the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the Bible says. So he's God, he's a person.

The third thing I want to add is he is personal, or he's approachable. If he's God, that matters. If he's a person -- and he is -- it matters. Therefore, we should have a relationship with him. We don't relegate him sort of off in the corner like I'm not really sure what to do with him and I don't want to be accused of being one of those crazy people that's, like, overdone and it's too weird, you know, but I'm not really sure what to do. And I think in the Christian world, we have extremes. You've got maybe -- and the book deals with this -- some abuses and some overemphasis or sensationalistic presentation of the Holy Spirit.

But then I would say in, like, conservative theology circles, the Holy Spirit is neglected. He's ignored. It's like you basically kind of keep him in the corner. And, of course, this is figurative. You can't literally put him in the corner. But you're like, You stay in the corner, you sit there, you be good. Don't do anything weird or out of ordinary because we're not really sure how to explain that.

So if we just take what the Bible says, he's personal, he's approachable, he dwells in you. So he's there. If you're a believer, you don't need to worry like, did he run away from me? Am I going to lose him? Like, do I need to beg him to kind of show up and do anything? No. He's here, so be confident.

And here's your second answer. Why is a statistic like that so prevalent, or why is that concerning, or what's the deal with that? I would say -- and I'm a pastor saying this, so I want to be part of the solution. We are not being taught enough about the Holy Spirit. And we are maybe not being exposed enough to sound doctrine and to teaching. Sometimes people hear the word "doctrine" or "theology" and they're thinking, like, this is going to be boring, it's going to be a professor, it's, you know, a 45-minute lecture. I always want to tell people, like, no. Theology is incredible, it's remarkable. The point is to know God. And the more you know him, the more you should love him. It should change your life. We should be vibrant. It shouldn't be boring and asleep.

And I think a lot of people are maybe undertaught or -- and this would be -- I point the blame at me, my type, pastors. We are called to present the truth and to press in on people and their hearts and put before them maybe not always what they want, but what they need. So if we'll do that, does it mean everything's going to be perfect and there'll never be a stat like that again? No. But we can then say, when we meet the Lord, "I did my best," and he'll say, "Well done, good and faithful servant," and the people who are entrusted to our care will be well taught. We've got to get to that third step.

So everyone loves God, the Father. It's like, that makes me feel warm and good and loved. Okay, he's a good, good Father. We sing the song. All right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right.

Costi Hinn: He's for me, great, that's awesome. Jesus, you died for me, you're my savior, okay. But let's not neglect the Holy Spirit's work, because he's the one right now. Not that the Father and the Son aren't active. But the Bible says we are the temple of the Holy Spirit, so we should get familiar with whom is inside of us, if that makes sense.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, it makes total sense. Costi, I love this because -- well, first of all, I love how you made it very clear and simple, because none of this should be obscure or intimidating or confusing.

Costi Hinn: No.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so I'm super thankful for that. And I do think that part of that statistic is that there's not a lot of talk about it and -- about who the Holy Spirit is, and, therefore, it gives us room to speculate, be confused, and the extremes are the only things that show up. So that's why your book is so good and this conversation is so good, because the Holy Spirit even now is with us, and he's going to be guiding us into truth during this conversation. And to these dear listeners, he's going to be speaking to them. So I'm so thankful we're talking about this.

So one of the things, though, in your book that you do, and I appreciate, you got real honest about how you used to believe and teach what you call the twisted version of the Holy Spirit. And this is real interesting. Some of you listeners may have already clued in on Costi's last name. But give us a picture kind of what you once believed and why.

Costi Hinn: Yes. So this would be the add-on to my answer about why there's a lot of confusion and a lot of misunderstanding about the Holy Spirit, is there are people -- we know this based on what the Bible teaches. There are false teachers, there are people who misrepresent the Lord's work. And you can look all over the New Testament, and Paul the Apostle had to deal with them all the time. They're troublemakers. And some people just ignorantly do it, and others maliciously. We don't always know the motive. But we know that the enemy is not going to just go down without a fight. He's going to try to deceive people.

And I was a part of that. I grew up in the Prosperity Gospel, which is not the biblical teaching that -- like, I would say -- and we tell this to our people all the time at our church. It's not a sin to be wealthy. It's a stewardship. It's a responsibility. Money is not evil. The love of money is evil. And prosperity is not evil, but the Prosperity Gospel is -- literally using the word "Gospel," good news. Hey, the good news is, yeah, Jesus died for your sins. Oh, sure, he gave you some great things that will give you a ticket to heaven. But guess what? If you believe in him by faith, if you give enough money, if you get under my ministry, he's going to make you happy, healthy, wealthy. You're always going to get promoted, you're always going to be wealthier, you're always going to be having perfect relationships. That marriage issue is going to be gone, that sickness is going to be gone. God wants you healthy and wealthy. That's his will. And what this does is, of course, present a version of God who's just like a magic genie. You rub him right with enough faith or a big enough offering or enough obedience and he will do whatever you want.

Well, the challenge with that is that most of the world, besides maybe a small percentage here in America, have suffered for their faith. They endure trials for following Christ. They don't get invited to the table, so to speak. They are not happy, healthy, wealthy; they are hurting, they're suffering, they're lonely. You look at the Apostle Paul, you look at Peter, John, you look at Christ. You look at some modern-day heroes. Like, I love Joni Eareckson Tada.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, yes.

Costi Hinn: She is a woman of God who's been so faithful. Well, you would be so wrong to say, Well, Joni, if you just had enough faith, or if you just gave enough money, or if you just -- and then fill in the blank, then God would heal you or the Holy Spirit would work in you powerfully, when Joni has been faithful and the Lord has been working through her suffering. She said once, "God will allow what he hates to accomplish what he loves."

Jennifer Rothschild: "To accomplish what he loves." I love that quote of hers, Costi. I'm so glad you said it. I agree.

Costi Hinn: It's so important.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's so impactful. Yeah. Keep going, though. Keep going. I'm just so excited you said that quote.

Costi Hinn: Well, now the sad part -- but I'm thankful for the Lord's grace -- is I believed everything opposite of that. I thought the Holy Spirit exists for me, it's all about me. His work to me was more of a mystical force. He's like the force from Star Wars, and If I use him, I can have what I want. Certainly I would not have honored him or been reverent. There was a lot of chaos and disorder in our church services. It was sort of an anything goes.

And then one of the real big misunderstood and misused statements was like, "Well, we don't want to put God in a box." Well, the challenge with that, it's a logical fallacy. And the reason for that is God gave us his Word, and it's a great framework for how he will operate and what things should look like. Even Paul in 1 Corinthians -- the church at Corinth, I always called them Vegas on steroids because they're wild. They needed order, and they weren't like, Paul, don't put the Holy Spirit in a box. Like, Come on, man. It was, Hey, guys, look. Is God supernatural? Yeah. Is he going to move in power? Oh, yeah. Will he change lives and is everything going to be predictable? No. However, his work, his personhood, worship, it should look like this. And he brings order. We were wildly out of order and -- I don't know how many people in your audience would identify as Pentecostal or Charismatics. I'm always careful. I never want to broad brush.

Jennifer Rothschild: Of course. Of course.

Costi Hinn: I don't think that people who believe a certain way are just broad brush. But we would be the extreme fringe, the stuff that you see on TV and a lot of people make weird. We even made it on Comedy Central at one point. It was not good.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Yeah.

Costi Hinn: So the Bible was a Godsend.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Well, and I appreciate your honesty about that because -- and I appreciate your clarification earlier. Sometimes it's out of ignorance. You know, it's not always malicious or having ill intent. Sometimes it is ignorance.

So this is how you grew up, this is what you knew. And so let's kind of move forward then. Because you kind of went into this phase then of deconstructing your faith, but you describe in the book how you were actually learning to submit your life to Christ. So give us an idea of what this process -- how did you go from there to here?

Costi Hinn: Well, this is going to sound really simple, and I think it is when God works in power in our lives. I started reading the Bible and filtering everything I ever believed and everything I ever assumed through Scripture. And here is where that hurts. It's a simple thing to say; it's very complex to live. There are things that are difficult to let go of. There's things that are difficult to accept because they cost you something. If you start reading the Bible and I say, Hey, Jennifer, I'm going to shoot you straight. The Bible says this, and here's what you've been doing and how you've been living, and what you've been saying is true, but this verse just as plain as day disagrees with what you're doing. You and I then might have conflict where you say, Well, who are you to -- or, Well, I just believe that, or, You're going to -- you can't tell me that, I've been in ministry for 30 years. And I'm going, Well, the Bible -- who's our authority, you or me or the Word of God? And so I began to see that the way I was living, the way I was believing, wasn't always lining up with Scripture.

And more than that, there was deception, there were lies. There were things that weren't happening, there were false prophecies. There was a lot of things that just didn't line up. So again, when I was younger, it was all in my family, and you just have this identity. You don't really think much. You think -- we would make it on national news. You know, Dateline NBC did something once. There was all sorts of stuff. And I used to just think, oh, the devil's attacking us because we're doing the Lord's work. We're just like Paul, we're just like Peter, we're just like Christ, we're just suffering, and they're attacking because they're jealous. Or we would say anyone who didn't believe like us was -- they were just dead. They don't have the Holy Spirit and the anointing like we do.

Well, I got older and people who were really loving and very kind, but, man, they just shot me straight. They did not sugarcoat it. Like Proverbs 27:6 says, "Faithful are the wounds of a friend. Deceitful are the kisses of an enemy." My friends wounded me in love and they pointed me to Scripture. And I started reading the Bible, and one day -- of course, my wife, who was my girlfriend at the time, then my fiancee, was involved in all of this. We just said, all right, every belief, every feeling, every thought, every experience, no matter what it means for us, let's filter it through Scripture, and whatever the Bible says, we'll live that way. And it was like almost with wincing knowing that was going to come with sacrifice. And that really started the change. The Holy Spirit used the Word. He pierced our hearts. And, of course, you know, 11 years later I'm a pastor and I write on these topics to try to help people. But ultimately point you back to the Word to go, Hey, God will show you. Listen to his voice through the Word.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, Costi, I love that. Because you know what? We're talking about the Holy Spirit today, but we need to do that with everything that we think and everything we're taught. I mean, I teach the Bible, and I always say, "My words are dead. God's Word is alive." You check everything according to the Word of God. The Holy Spirit is your teacher. Because we can inadvertently lay our cultural, our religious, our experience template over what we're being taught and what we're believing without realizing, well, that may not be exactly what Scripture says. So thank you for lifting up His Word. We need to do that with every single thing.

So let's get very practical about the Holy Spirit -- okay? -- and what the Bible does say. All right? So I have heard your pronouns very clearly here, but I want to make sure our audience has. Is the Holy Spirit a he or an it? Because often we hear him called an it because he's the Holy Ghost, or he breathes on us and all this mystical stuff. So give us an idea. You said he was a person. So is it wrong when people call him an it?

Costi Hinn: Oh, such a good question. And it's a -- I appreciate the soft ball. I want to swing for the fence on this one. And I say this in love. We've got to get this deep down in our soul and ingrained in our minds and have a mind change about the way we're going to talk about him. He's not an it. The Bible describes him as a person, as God, as an equal and active person in the Godhead. He is equal in the Trinity. So he's not an it. He's not a mystical force. He's not an abstract sort of like ghosty thing out there. He is a person. So we should honor him that way, we should revere him that way. We should think of him on equal footing with the Father and the Son. And that changes our language.

It also changes our relationship -- well, it ought to -- where he is with you, he is in you, he's filling you. He has baptized you into the body of Christ. He's gifted you, purposed you. He is bearing his fruit in you. And in that, we should never -- I'm going to just say it really clearly and strongly. We should never call him an it. If someone's listening, they're like, oh, I do that or I slip, I just forget, I've never been taught, okay, take it easy on yourself. You're trying, you're learning, you're growing. But now begins the learning growth phase where you go, all right, I'm going to start viewing him this way. And again, that's why I made a case for that in the book.

If I could add one more thing to that. I want people to be confident about his presence in their life. So, you know, you'll read in the book a section where I lobby for another language change. He's not an it, he's a he, he's a person. And then two, because he dwells in you and I as believers, we can kind of -- maybe I'll say it grow up or grow beyond the language that we hear sometimes in, like, our worship services or music things where people say, you know, Holy Spirit, please come, or, We just invite you here right now. We ask that you would be in this place. And of course we know what most of the time people are saying. They're recognizing God. They're asking him to work. And it's supposed to be a posture of humility.

But what if -- here's my pastoral pet peeve. I don't want people insecure in that moment, if they're a believer, hoping he'll come, begging him to come, and pleading that, man, if he just feels right about it and we get the music right and the feeling right and the notes right and the lights right and we pray the right thing, man, he'll show up. I want to just go to people that are insecure or hoping in that moment and go, You look at me and you listen so closely. He is inside of you. You don't need to ask him to come, you just need to say, Holy Spirit, thank you for being present. Thank you for taking over my life. And then pray in line with Scripture, "Bear your fruit in me today." Take control. Fill me, help me to glorify Jesus. Use the Word, use the singing, all of this right now to fill me and deploy me. Help me to live for the Lord. Like, talk to him like he's there and active.

I always illustrate it this way. If I go on a date night with my wife -- she is my best friend, I love her -- and I were to say, Sweetheart, would you just be here right now in this place. Would you just come right now and just be my wife. Would you just be here, she would look at me, Jennifer, and go --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah.

Costi Hinn: -- Costi Hinn, what are you -- I'm here. So first of all look at the ring. I'm in covenant with you. And I'm like, God is in covenant with us. And she'd say, I am here, I've been here. I love you, we are one, we're in union. Can we enjoy one another, please, and stop asking me to be where I already am. That would be my loving pitch right now if someone's listening going, I've never thought about that. Don't be hard on your music leader this Sunday. Take it easy. You know they mean well usually. But be confident. He's in you. He's active. He's not an it, he's not abstract. He's there, so talk to him that way.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. I love your illustration about your wife, because that is so true. And I'm a married woman. I'd be almost offended if my husband said that to me. I'd be like, Dude --

Costi Hinn: Totally.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- come on. So, yeah, that's really a good picture. And I appreciate the grace you gave, because sometimes we don't know what -- when we're saying that, or when someone else does, we don't want to judge or be harsh. We're all in process and learning. So I want to take what you're sharing and I want all of us to -- and really honor the Holy Spirit by applying it.

So let me ask you this. Let's get really specific because of the confusion with the Holy Spirit. There are some churches, denominations, who believe that you may repent of your sins, receive Christ as your Savior, but then on a different time, date you may receive the Holy Spirit; whereas there are others who believe when you receive Christ as your Savior, you receive the Holy Spirit, the 100% Holy Spirit at that same time. Can you explain that to us for those who might have some confusion. Like, they're wondering, do I have the Holy Spirit? He just said he's in me. Is he?

Costi Hinn: Such a good question. I believe this and I put it in the book and present it this way. I believe that Scripture is clear that there is one baptism into the body of Christ. That's 1 Corinthians 12:13 where Paul says we all have been baptized into one body by one Spirit. We have one Lord. We are one. That's conversion. When you are saved, you are in the body of Christ. And there's no, like, J.V. Holy Spirit and we're going to get, like, the varsity version down the road.

There is one baptism -- and I make a case for that -- and there can be many fillings. And here is the linguistic evidence in the Bible. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is never commanded. It's just taught that when you place your faith in Christ, the Holy Spirit, he takes you -- this is spiritual -- he takes you, gives you a new heart. He places you into the spiritual body of Christ. You are a part. You're not wearing the JV jersey. You're on the team, you got the full Holy Spirit. You are called, set apart, you are saved, you're sealed.

And then there is a command in Ephesians 5:18 where Paul says do not be drunk with wine, but be filled with the Holy Spirit. He uses a present active verb, which just means this in fancy Greek, be being constantly, all the time, every day, every moment, repeatedly filled with the Holy Spirit. And that is a yieldedness. You would say it this way: there is one baptism, there can be many fillings.

So each and every day do I need the baptism of the Holy Spirit? Do I need to get, like, this extra feeling or have somebody lay their hands on me? Do I need to fall? People maybe call it being slain in the Spirit. Do I need to speak in tongues or else I haven't really got them? Well, no, the Bible doesn't teach that. In fact, 1 Corinthians 12:30, Paul actually is saying not all have gifts of healing, not all will speak in tongues. He says not all. We all have different gifts.

So I want people to be so careful and actually reject any teaching that says you have to do these things, these manifestations, or else you don't really have the Holy Spirit. There's only one list -- if you want to talk manifestation -- that you would want to see to know the evidence of the Spirit in your life, and it is the fruit of the Spirit. It's in Galatians 5:22-23. That's fine. Those are spiritual characteristics coming out of us. But to say that you need some extra experience is wrong. We want to walk by the Spirit. That's Galatians 5:16. Means to be preoccupied, yielded moment by moment, hour by hour -- that's how we live as believers ongoing -- but not chasing some mountain peak moment where, man, I finally got them. I feel like I finally felt them.

You know -- you brought up just now being a married woman. And I am a married man. My wife and I have five kids. And I know every day that she's mine and I'm hers. But there are times where -- like right now we have a one-year-old who likes to wake up sometimes at night. And if I trusted feelings or if she trusted feelings, we would be insecure, worried about this, that, and the other. I'm at my office right now and I don't doubt for a second that my wife loves me and I love her and we're in covenant. The reason for that is what I know, not what I feel. There'll be many feelings people have. You might feel empty right now. You might feel distant. You might feel lonely, hurting, suffering. You might be in a tough situation and feel terrible, but you don't -- I heard Alistair Begg say this one time. He said, "Don't ask me what I feel, ask me what I know." What I know about my God, what I know about who he is, what I know about his faithfulness. I'll go with what I know because what I feel always changes. I want people to not go with always the feeling. Like, did you feel the goosebumps? Okay, it was a good Sunday. Like, no. The feelings will fail you. But what you know about the Holy Spirit is what you should depend on. So I hope that helps some people a little bit.

Jennifer Rothschild: I hope it does too. I think it should. That was so clear and so correct. I just appreciate it so much. It represents the truth of the Word.

So let me ask you this question then, Costi, since we're being nitty-gritty about the Holy Spirit. Is worshiping the Holy Spirit different than worshiping God? And is it okay? Like, what's the deal there?

Costi Hinn: Well, if you worship the Holy Spirit, if you acknowledge the Holy Spirit in your prayer life, if he's God -- and he is -- if he's a person -- and he is -- if he's an equal person in the Godhead -- and he is -- then you are praying to God, worshiping God, you should revere him.

Here's what I would encourage. Let's be as accurate as we can be -- when we're talking about the Godhead, our Triune God, the Trinity, let's be as accurate as we can. So I wouldn't pray to the Father and say, Father, thank you so much for dying for me on the Cross. I would say, Father, thank you -- because of what I know from the Word, Father, thank you for sending Jesus on my behalf. Thank you for loving me, for adopting me, for calling me your child. Thank you for your provision, my Jehovah Jireh. Like, you could look at the names of God and pray in line. You could pray, Lord Jesus, help me to live for you today, help me to follow you in obedience, to share your Gospel, to reflect you. Thank you for dying for me. All those really, really helpful, specifically with the Holy Spirit. We should sing songs about him and his work.

And I believe strongly, based on what Scripture teaches -- and church history attests to this as well, although church history is not the inspired Word of God. But there's evidence that many of the church fathers and many of the saints of old would acknowledge and pray to the Holy Spirit in their prayer life, asking him to do what he does. Fill me today for the glory of Christ. John 16, Jesus says, "He will glorify me." That's his job description. So Holy Spirit, help me to bring glory to Jesus today. Help me to bear fruit. Help me to walk in righteousness. Please kill the old me again. I need to die daily. Take the old -- I call him the old crummy mummy. Be like the mummy that wants to rise again. Kill him again. Help me to walk in righteousness to be filled and under your control so that today my life will be used to glorify Jesus. That would be biblical prayer.

I'll say one more thing. I love what Charles Spurgeon preached one time. I believe it was a sermon. It was back in the late 1800s. It was on October the 6th, I believe, if I'm remembering correctly. And he preaches this sermon basically rebuking and correcting his church for paying lots of attention to the Father and to the Son, but neglecting and not reverencing -- he calls him the august guest, meaning the Holy Spirit. He calls him the august guest. Like Caesar Augustus, you have these royal names. And Spurgeon says how dare we neglect him, the one who has come and who's filled us.

And so I would want to challenge people and encourage people, you are worshiping the Holy Spirit. You're praying to or about the Holy Spirit's work. You want to do that accurately. And in that, you are following what Scripture shows us. Don't neglect him, please.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, and he doesn't neglect us, because Scripture tells us that he prays for us. Now, that might be an unfamiliar thought to some of our listeners. So what does it mean that the Holy Spirit prays for us?

Costi Hinn: Yeah. So Romans 8:26, such a good passage. It says that the Holy Spirit is praying for us with groanings too deep for words. And the whole preface to that is Paul says that he helps us in our weaknesses when we don't know what to pray. So if someone goes, All right, Costi, you say I should pray about or to the Holy Spirit, I should acknowledge his work in my prayer life. Well, you know, I just -- I'm at a loss for words right now. Oh, perfect. Romans 8:26, all you have to do is say, Holy Spirit, thank you for interceding for me right now. Thank you for praying for me. I just don't know what to pray.

You think of Job sitting in silence just mourning. Maybe that's you listening and you're going through a tough time, you're hurting, and you don't really know what to say. Hey, don't worry, because right now, as a believer, the Holy Spirit is praying for you. He's your advocate, he's your helper. The word "paraclete," that's what it means. He's your helper. And he is advocating for you, praying for you, helping you, and those prayers are being ushered into the throne room of God by your mediator, Christ.

And so I would want everybody to know that -- what an amazing truth. You don't just pray to God. God the Holy Spirit is praying for you. And I need that daily, hourly, by the second. I thank God. What a gift.

Jennifer Rothschild: It is a gift. And what a mercy too, because we don't know how to pray. And I know often I will pray and I will just ask the Holy Spirit, Make sure this sounds right. You know, you do it right for me.

Costi Hinn: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: I want what God wants, I want what Jesus wants, I just -- so help me out. And I'm so thankful for that. That's just another element of mercy.

And the Holy Spirit, he is active in the life of believers, yet you mention in your book that there are three ways that everyone -- like, even if they are not a believer in Christ or in Christ yet -- it doesn't matter what their religious background -- they are going to encounter the Holy Spirit in one of three ways. Can you explain what that is.

Costi Hinn: Absolutely. So Jesus is preparing his disciples to go for his departure, and he says, It's to your advantage that I go. And they're kind of like, What -- hold on. You leaving is good? Like, Explain that one. You're Jesus. And he begins to explain that the Holy Spirit will convict the world. He'll basically convict -- I want to use the word "prove," because that's what he means. He's going to prove the world to be about sin and righteousness and judgment. Those are the three things. The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment, which basically means when the Holy Spirit comes -- this is what Jesus promises -- he's going to prove the world to be wrong about their sin. So he's going to convict them. They're going to know it even deep down. This is why, if you're listening to this, you're like, I got Thanksgiving coming up, Christmas coming up, holiday season. And as the year turns, it's like -- you talk to family and they go, yeah, I don't want to hear that, though. Don't bring that up. That makes me uncomfortable. What's happening? They're feeling the conviction of the Holy Spirit. And instead of running to it, they run from it.

And this is what Romans 1:18 says, that the unrighteous suppress the truth. They shove it down. They don't want it. They reject it. So you have the Holy Spirit doing that all the time. So you say, well, what do I do with that? Well, pray for soft hearts. Pray that people would receive the conviction of the Holy Spirit with humility and not pride.

The second thing is he convicts the world about righteousness. He confirms and affirms that Jesus was the righteous Son of God, that when he ascended -- because he left, Jesus did -- the Holy Spirit comes. This affirms that Christ is the Righteous One. He's the Son of God. He's able to enter the presence of the Father. He's seated at the right hand. He was who he said he was, so believe in him.

And then judgment. And Jesus explains when he proves the world or convicts the world of judgment, it's because the prince of this world stands condemned. Basically the Holy Spirit is shouting, if you will, through the Word and the Truth through the megaphone that Satan is defeated, the devil is a liar, he's wrong. He will not win and has not won. Christ is victorious. He will return. He will establish his throne forever and all will bow to him as King, as Lord, and as the Son of God. And that moment is coming.

And the Holy Spirit even now presses in on hearts and the choice is there for people. Will you accept his message or will you reject his message? Will you run to the conviction? Will you run from the conviction? Will you declare Christ as Lord? He already is. Will you declare he's your Lord? Will you submit to him or will you reject him? And ultimately, while you may not bow the knee now, one day you will. The Holy Spirit's work, I would say it's weighty work. It's heaven and hell, it's life and death. It's the most important moment, the most important decision anybody will ever make when he calls for a verdict on your soul. And you want to be so reverent and careful and aware of his work. Why? Well, because he's who many theologians call the Agent of Salvation. He's working right now, and souls are being won because of his work, so let's stay close to him and get to know him.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my goodness, Costi. And this why -- like you said at the beginning, this is why theology is beautiful. It is hope. It is beautiful. And I am so thankful for the gift of God in you, of the clarity with which you present this. This is so life giving.

All right. We are going to have to get to our last question, though. And, of course, we are recommending your book. You need to go deeper with Costi. You want to understand this. This is why he has written the book, my people. But I'm so thankful.

All right, so let's get to our last question. So someone's listening and they are just -- some people have gotten -- kind of a light bulb has gone off, some people a longing has increased. So whatever the situation is, how can someone who is listening right now experience the fullness, as God intended, of the Holy Spirit even now and then make it a practice in their daily?

Costi Hinn: Well, first and foremost, to experience his presence and his power in your life, you need to believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That is the Good News that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God. Not just some historical figure, not just some get-out-of-hell ticket, but the Son of the Living God, your Savior, your Lord, the one you should follow. You, in order to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, need to repent of your sin. That means to change your mind. It's not like a work, like I got to do this and then God will love me. He, I would always say, loves you the way you are, but loves you too much to leave you the way you are.

Believe the Gospel. Believe in Christ for salvation. No other mediator, no other work, definitely not yourself to be saved. Look to Christ today. And in that, in looking to Christ, faith means to trust fully, to throw oneself upon something or someone. Put your whole life under the authority, the power, and the saving work of Christ. You'll receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, and you watch, your life will change. And you say, Well, it's that simple? Like, I just -- so believe that message. Look to Christ and what? You know, that sounds too easy. Well, that's why Paul said the message of the Cross is foolishness to the perishing. The world thinks it's silly and crazy. But to those who are being saved, it's the power of God. And so I would believe the Gospel.

Then two, to experience and relish in the Spirit's work in your life every day, fill your life with the Word. The two passages that talk about the Spirit's filling, Colossians 3:16 and onward, Ephesians 5:18 and onward, both reference the word "saturated life" filled with obviously reading the Word of Christ, but singing, thanksgiving, fellowship. Get around people that talk about this stuff. Get around a church and a family and friends and a community. Listen to podcasts like Jennifer's and dig in and fill your life, fill your mind with the Word of God. What you consume, you will become.

And one of the most important things we need to remember -- we know this in athletics, we know this with food, we know this with going to the gym, we know this with planting a garden. What you put in the ground, what you sow, you'll reap. And so if you sow into the Word, meaning in your life you plant yourself in there, I'm telling you, the Holy Spirit's going to use it. He's going to fill you and you're going to know God's will, you're going to live with purpose. You're not going to wonder or wander, you're going to know, and the Holy Spirit will guide you through the truth. So get your life all wrapped up in Christ and the Word and watch the Spirit work.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh, that was so, so good. So let's live a Word-saturated life. As Costi said, reading it, singing it, talking about it, and then hanging out with others who are reading it, singing it, and talking about it. They're living it. That's what we need.

K.C. Wright: Fill your mind with the Word, because what you consume, you will become. What you sow, you reap. Plant yourself in the Word. Man, I'm telling you what, I am so inspired. And this whole conversation just pumped me up with gratefulness for the Holy Spirit all over again. What a great conversation.

So we'll have a full transcript, as always, of this on the Show Notes. Go to 413podcast.com/313. So you can read it, review it. Because he quoted so many Scriptures --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, he did.

K.C. Wright: -- and you may need to hear them again and write down the references so you can share with others.

And we'll also link you to Jennifer's Instagram there because -- news flash -- we're giving away one of Costi's books. You can enter to win at Jennifer's Insta or find a link to get there on the Show Notes at 413podcast.com/313.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, our friends. You can have a real life-giving, vibrant, powerful relationship with the Holy Spirit because you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength.

K.C. Wright: I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

Jennifer and K.C.: You can.

Jennifer Rothschild: We all can. We're not going to edit that, we're just going to be done with the podcast.

K.C. Wright: I just jumped at the "I can."

Jennifer Rothschild: I know, because you're so excited --

K.C. Wright: Hey, listen --

Jennifer Rothschild: -- because you believe it.

K.C. Wright: I'm telling you, I -- this "I Can" life has really got into my bloodstream.

Jennifer Rothschild: Exactly.

K.C. Wright: Because when you're about to pass over at the gym, you can tell yourself you can. You can do it. You can do all things through Christ.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's right. Amen.

K.C. Wright: It's so important.