4:13 Podcast: Can I Learn To Read the Bible as One Big Story? With Courtney Doctor [Episode 338]

Courtney Doctor: That it is this one big cohesive story. And as I started studying that, I think a couple things happened. The first is that my love of God's Word itself was just skyrocketing. I mean, it was like, oh, this thing holds together from beginning to end. And my trust in the Word itself was growing.

But then when you read the story and you see God, the main character of the story, you see him pursuing relentlessly a wayward, rebellious, really awful people for himself without -- nothing stands in his way. That my love of him and my ability to rest in him just grew by leaps and bounds because I realized, oh, he really will never leave us, he really will never forsake us.

Jennifer Rothschild: Today on The 4:13, we are going to see the Bible from the garden to glory. On this episode, author and Bible teacher Courtney Doctor is going to show you how to read the Bible as the beautiful story that it is, and you will experience God's astounding love for you while you do it. You're going to discover how all the parts of the Bible fit together brilliantly as a unified whole, and you are going to be encouraged to live in hopeful anticipation of the story's epic finale when heaven and earth are renewed in glory. Ooh, it's going to be so good. So buckle up buttercups, here we go.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hi, friends. That was KC Wright, my Seeing Eye Guy. So glad you're back with us. We love you people. You are just dear to us, so thank you for hanging out. And I got to tell you, somebody that's with us today is dear to me also. Her name is Courtney Doctor. So if you've not met her yet, you're going to love her.

By the way, if we are new friends -- I should say this -- I'm Jennifer, and it is so great to have you with us. And our goal here at The 4:13 is to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you're living that "I Can" life of Philippians 4:13. And Courtney's going to help us do this.

So I was with her in -- I think it was Louisville, Kentucky. This was back in the fall, actually. We were doing a Lifeway Women Live event. She is one of the most delightful people I've met. Every time I'm with her, I'm like, "You really need to get your Ph.D. I just really want to call you Dr. Doctor." I just think it's the coolest thing ever. Dr. Doctor, wouldn't that be fun? And people would be, like, so confused when they tried to address her.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: But that reminded me, KC. So growing up -- okay, if I'm inappropriate here, please forgive me. Do not email me. Okay? Grace, grace, grace.

KC Wright: Please don't.

Jennifer Rothschild: But I had a friend in college, and her gynecologist --

KC Wright: Oh, mercy.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- was named Dr. Feeley. Isn't that horrible?

KC Wright: Please don't email.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know, don't email. I'm just telling you the truth. Okay?

KC Wright: Oh, no.

Jennifer Rothschild: So show grace. But that was her gynecologist's name.

KC Wright: Someone just spewed their coffee out laughing so hard.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. That made me laugh so hard. I was like, I would have to change doctors.

Okay. But then Sandy Patty, her dentist was named Dr. Molar. I'm like, "That's so perfect." So that's all I've got. So I'm just thinking Courtney needs to be Dr. Doctor, because that would just be perfect. Okay. Like I said, don't email me. Email Courtney. She would love to hear from you.

Okay, that's it. Let's introduce her.

KC Wright: Courtney Doctor serves as Director of Women's Initiatives for the Gospel Coalition. She's a Bible teacher and author of "From Garden to Glory." Ooh, I love that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Don't you love that title? I love that title.

KC Wright: And she's authored several Bible studies, including "In View of God's Mercies," "Behold & Believe," and a book called "Steadfast."

Courtney and her husband have four kiddos, three children-in-law, and five beautiful grandchildren. And you will love her as much as Jennifer does. So let's get on with this great conversation. Is there a Doctor in the house?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, there is.

All right, Courtney. I mentioned already to KC that I want you to get your Ph.D. just so I can call you Dr. Doctor, because I just think --

Courtney Doctor: Right?

Jennifer Rothschild: -- that's the coolest name ever. I love it. I love it. Dr. Doctor.

Courtney Doctor: It's a little goofy, but --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, it is. Wouldn't it be hilarious, though.

Okay. But anyway, Courtney, all right, one of the things I love about this new book is the title, "From Garden to Glory." That is a great title. And so it goes through the whole story of the Bible. And you mention in your book that the structure of the Bible, of the story, is kind of like a good fairy tale. Now, I know you're not saying the Bible is a fairy tale. You're saying the structure is similar. So that's what I want you to start with. Explain what you mean by that.

Courtney Doctor: Oh, I love that you already said that the story itself is not a fairy tale, right? It's the truest story that's ever been told. But I remember -- you know, most of us have heard how the Bible is structured in these four main parts: creation, fall, redemption, you know, new creation, consummation. People call them different things. And I had heard that, and I knew that, but I didn't really understand why it mattered, like what that meant.

And so the first thing, I think, that I was learning was that the Bible is one cohesive story from beginning to end, and there actually is a plot line to it, and there's character development. Even God is progressive revelation, so we know more about God at the end of the story than we did at the beginning of the story.

But I was starting to learn this structure, this creation, fall, redemption, new creation that -- those are the four big parts of the story. But it wasn't until I started understanding or seeing -- I was like, oh, that's very similar to what I learned in English class in high school, which was not my jam, but learning that there's an introduction, a conflict, a resolution -- you know, a climax, and a resolution. And I was remembering that, and I'm saying, oh, that kind of is just like the story. But when I realized that each of those parts were so similar to the parts of a fairy tale -- so we all know, you know, that a fairy tale begins with "Once upon a time."

Jennifer Rothschild: "Once upon a time," yeah.

Courtney Doctor: And that I could understand because I know what the author is trying to do in that part of the story. He or she is introducing the characters. We're being shown, as the reader, what life was supposed to be like, right? Because in the once upon a time, the birds are singing, the sun is shining, you know, the princess is skipping. I mean, it's that beautiful time, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Courtney Doctor: Yeah. But then an evil witch, or in our story but then an evil serpent comes on the scene and the great disruption happens, the great problem, the dilemma, the thing that is going to need to be solved in the story. And when that happens in a fairy tale, you see that the characters are in danger, and they're wounded, and they're helpless. But then in a good fairy tale, the hero, what does he do? He arrives at just the right time, and he saves and he rescues and he heals and he helps.

And then there's this glimpse in every fairy tale of -- and we call it "Happily ever after," and it's this great conclusion to the story. And what it is is we're given a glimpse of what life looks like when everything's been made right again.

And I realized those are the four parts of our story. And they each matter, they do something in the story. So that's what I mean when I say that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. I love that. And, you know, it reminds me, C.S. Lewis, when he came to faith in Christ, he was so enamored by myth, ancient myth. Pagan myth, of course. And I believe it was Tolkien who was saying but in those myths is an echo of what he called the true myth. That's what C.S. Lewis called the true myth. Because this is the best story ever, and everything has always led up to it.

So I'm curious, Courtney, what would you say to our friends who are listening, like, how can understanding the Bible as this one big narrative, rather than just, oh, a chapter here and a verse there, how does understanding it as a big narrative change our faith? And I'm curious, how did it change your faith when you clued into that?

Courtney Doctor: Yeah. It really did, Jennifer. I'd known the Lord for a long time and I was starting to understand what we call either biblical theology or the meta-narrative of the Scripture -- you know, of the Bible, that it is this one big cohesive story. And as I started studying that, I think a couple things happened. The first is that my love of God's Word itself was just skyrocketing. I mean, it was like, oh, this thing holds together from beginning to end, and my trust in the Word itself was growing.

But then when you read the story and you see God, the main character of the story, you see him pursuing relentlessly a wayward, rebellious, really awful people for himself without -- nothing stands in his way, that my love of him and my ability to rest in him just grew by leaps and bounds because I realized, oh, he really will never leave us, he really will never forsake us. I mean, he is so in this thing. And Isaiah 46:9-10 says -- he's talking, and Isaiah wrote down -- you know, where God said, "I am God alone. There is no other. I am the one who knows the end from the beginning." And it's how he defines himself, that he's the one that's holding this whole thing together. And so I realized, well, if he's holding this whole thing together, he's certainly holding my little story together from beginning to end. And he knows the end from the beginning of my little story too. And so it just -- my ability to rest in his goodness and his faithfulness and his strength, it just increased exponentially.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's beautiful, Courtney. You know, it reminds me -- I had a similar experience last year. I took up the challenge to read the Bible in 90 days, which I --

Courtney Doctor: Oh, my word. That's a lot.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I didn't do it. It is a lot. And I didn't do it. So may I just give grace to all those who feel like they have failed at something. No, I think it took me 157 days, which was still quite --

Courtney Doctor: That's still a lot.

Jennifer Rothschild: But I will tell you what happened with me. And it's what I'm hearing in your heart. I love fiction books. And I can get so addicted and ravenous that I will just keep it in my ear -- because I listen to audiobooks. I will listen to an eight-hour book in eight hours. Like, I am done with it as quickly as I can. I love it. I consume it.

Well, when I took on the discipline of trying to listen to the Bible in 90 days, that meant an hour a day. Well, what happened is -- because I think I maintained pretty decent for maybe 45 days. It was halfway through when I started to wane a little. But anyway, my point is this. I became just as enamored by the narrative. And I had a similar experience. I was like, oh, my goodness, this is like a story. I mean, you forget when you don't approach it as one big story. And then there is a -- you're right, there is a deeper love for the author of the story, because we get to read about people who God pursued and forgave and loved. But we're those people. We're those people.

But here's what's curious to me, that I wonder about with your approach to this. Sometimes we think, okay, but it's really just the Gospel, that part of the story. Like, that is the big story, the story of the cross. So you're kind of indicating that maybe that story in and of itself is not enough, to know just that story. Why is that?

Courtney Doctor: I hate to say not enough, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. I know.

Courtney Doctor: Because it is the high point of the story. It's the beautiful climax of the story. Everything is moving towards the cross, and then everything moves out from there. So it's so beautiful, and I don't mean to diminish that part at all. But I think so often we don't either know what the cross is solving, what it's -- how it's solving the great dilemma, because we don't know what the great dilemma is. And we explain our faith to others by saying Jesus died on the cross to forgive me of my sins and take me to heaven. That is so true, but there is so much more, right? It's so much more than that. And so when we start in the beginning, we actually -- we're not starting with sin. We're not starting with brokenness. We're starting with wholeness and with holiness and with beauty and with shalom. I mean, that's where we need to start, is because that's what we were created for.

And so then when we understand that sin and brokenness and all of the things that come as a result are ramifications of and that our God is so good to fix it and to restore it, and it was the most costly rescue mission of all time, but it becomes even more beautiful and more treasured, more precious when we understand everything that was being redeemed in the process. He is redeeming all things. I mean, Scripture says it so many times, all things. And so then it makes glory something we long for even more because we really do understand that our hearts were created for it and that we're going to have these things again. God is going to be our God, and we are going to be his people, and we are going to dwell with him. And there will be no more, right? There will be no more --

Jennifer Rothschild: That's right. That's right.

Courtney Doctor: -- of all of these things that enter the story as a result of the one act of disobedience in Genesis 3, so...

Jennifer Rothschild: And then from that one act of what the Bible calls the second Adam, what Jesus did for us. So I appreciate that, because I agree -- and I'm going to reiterate just in case somebody's vacuuming and missed what you said. You are not saying that the Gospel is not the most important part of the story, but you're saying it is -- we want to read the whole story because then that most beautiful part takes on even greater significance. And I'm so thankful for that.

One of the other things that you also write about is that it's important to know who the first audience was and what the author was actually trying to convey. So let's geek out a bit. Like, who was the original audience?

Courtney Doctor: Okay. You know I love these questions. I mean, this is -- yeah, I like that, let's geek out a little bit. Let's do it, Jennifer.

Okay, so first audience. I remember sitting in seminary -- and I don't know if this has ever happened to you, Jennifer. You'll have to tell me if it has. But sitting in my class and the professor said, "I want to tell you that the Bible was not written to you." I'm looking at him like, What? No, I have literally been taught my whole life that it was a love note written right to me, you know? And he's like, "This is not written to you." He said, "It is written for you, but it was not written to you," meaning originally.

So Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible. He was writing to those people who wandered in the desert for 40 years. They were the first people to come out of slavery. Well, that should change the way we read Genesis 1 and 2. They were the first audience. And God is being presented as the High King of Heaven, the great God of all the earth, the one who just defeated Pharaoh. Because you know when they got to the other side of the Red Sea, that they needed to know who is this God that just defeated all of Egypt's gods in the ten plagues, right? Who just rescued us from Pharaoh? Or when we get to Paul's letters, I mean, we need to know, oh, he was actually writing to the church in Rome. Well, we need to know what's happening in the church in Rome or the church in Crete or the church in Ephesus to really understand.

Because the message for us -- which it is living and active. The Word of God is living and active. So there is absolutely a message for us, but it is not different than the original message. So we have to know what was being written originally so that we can then pull it through time and space and be faithful readers and understanders and students and appliers of God's Word. So that's just a really important first step, that we read it accounting for that first audience.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, and I love that because it helps us still deal with and read Scripture accurately, but it also helps us to know when we need to take something absolutely literally, and when not to. Because there were some things within the context of the original audience, the original author, that just literally don't exist now, you know?

Courtney Doctor: Exactly. Exactly.

Jennifer Rothschild: So you got to be able to still read it accurately and know there is no error, yet there are times when we don't take it absolutely literally.

Courtney Doctor: Exactly. We don't have parapets on our roofs anymore.

Jennifer Rothschild: No. Right.

Courtney Doctor: You know, some of those things have to be adjusted for. We have to understand how we would apply that today. Other things, it's a straight arrow to us. I think the Ten Commandments are -- you know, don't lie, don't steal, don't commit adultery, there's not a whole lot of contextualization we need to do there. That's a pretty -- that message for them is the exact same message for us. But you're right, we do have to -- when we read, you know, put a parapet around your roof, it's like, oh, do I need to literally go do that? No.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. But it's giving us a principle that we can apply.

Courtney Doctor: Exactly. Exactly.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, that's so good. And I think that it just again reminds us that we need to receive the Bible as the story. And just like I do with a great book, I'm always paying attention to the narrative that's going on, to the culture that's being portrayed at the time, to the context. All those things matter when we read Scripture, when we want to read it well.

You know who else has helped us with this, too, I think, is Rebecca -- -- McLaughlin?

Courtney Doctor: Yes, McLaughlin.

Jennifer Rothschild: Thank you. McLaughlin. She does a good job with that also. Which I'll have a link to one of her episodes so y'all can look at that. But that would also be a real complement to Courtney's book and this podcast.

Another question for you, though, Courtney, is this. The enemy. Okay? Because like in every story, there's always the villain, you know, the thing that we just don't like. And so, of course, the Bible has one -- you already mentioned him -- the serpent. And he messed with Adam and Eve, and they gave in, and everything got changed from that point. Okay, so if that's the case, is that enemy already defeated? When Jesus died on the cross and rose from the grave, he still has power, it seems. So talk to us about this enemy and how we navigate the enemy within our story.

Courtney Doctor: What a great question. So, yes, I mean, it's -- we live in what's called the already and the not yet. And that's why knowing the story is so important, to know where we are in the story. And so already he's been defeated, but we are not yet free from his presence. So that's the already/not yet. That's where we live in the story.

And I think one of the most helpful things if -- okay, if you can -- I'm going to -- these are all going to kind of sound alike. But they're so helpful for me. It's how our relationship with sin changes in each of the four parts of the story. So the four parts again: creation, fall, redemption, new creation, or, like we said earlier, once upon a time, but then the evil serpent, the hero came at just the right time, and then happily ever after, the four parts of our story. But our relationship to sin changes in each one of those.

Here's where the hope is. Back to your question. Adam and Eve were able to sin, but they did not have to, right? They were able to not sin, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right.

Courtney Doctor: They didn't have to. That's not how we're born. I was not born that way. I was born not able to not sin. That is how we enter this world. And so that's how every human being, after they are exiled from Eden, is born into this world. We're born into the first Adam, Scripture says. And our relationship with sin is not able to not sin. And don't we all know it, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, right.

Courtney Doctor: It's with us. But Jesus, when he defeated sin on the cross -- and what did he tell Nicodemus? Oh, you have to be born again. You have to be born of the Spirit. And we are -- there's all these different ways of talking about our salvation. We're united to Christ. And when that happens, we are -- what does 2 Corinthians say? We are a new creation. The old has gone. Well, what's the old? The old is the not able to not sin. And the new has come because we've been born again, and our relationship to sin -- if you're saved, if you're in Christ, you're actually able to not sin. That's what Romans 6 tells us. We're dead to sin, you know, able to not sin. But, man, we're going to fight it every day of our lives, and we're going to because we're living in the already and the not yet. And so we're dead to sin, but sin is not dead to us, and so we are still, like, struggling against it.

But one day in the fourth part of the story, you know, in glory, we are going to be able -- or we are not going to be able to sin. It will be impossible for us to sin. So even better -- that's why Nancy Guthrie titled her book "Even Better Than Eden," because the new heavens and the new earth are not just a redo of Eden, they're even better than Eden, because we will not be able to sin. We will not do what Adam and Eve did. And so that's our hope.

So right now, we have to know that in Christ -- go read Romans 6. In Christ, we are actually able to not sin. He has defeated the penalty of sin; he has defeated the power of sin. One day we'll be delivered from the presence of sin. And so our job right now is to say no to the practice of sin. And so that's how we battle it now in Christ.

Jennifer Rothschild: Courtney, wow. I don't know that I've ever heard that presented as clearly as you just did. Thank you. I'm going to really contemplate that. That is so clear and so helpful. And I think I'm hearing a few chains breaking off some people's hearts --

Courtney Doctor: Oh, praise God.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- right now, I really do.

Courtney Doctor: Praise God.

Jennifer Rothschild: Thank you, Lord.

All right, let's speed along in the story of Scripture. Between what we call the Old Testament and the New Testament, there's these 400 years of silence. But then -- but then the best part of the story happens, and that's when the hero is revealed. So we've talked about the cross and the Gospel, but I want us just to kind of circle back to that. How did Jesus -- how did that part of the story, Jesus and the Cross and the resurrection, how did that impact or change the story of Scripture?

Courtney Doctor: Yeah, it changes everything, doesn't it? It's so beautiful. So the eternal Son of God, the one who is with God in the beginning, who is God, the one through whom creation occurred, I mean, he is this eternal Son of God. And he took on flesh and he confined himself to the womb of a young girl and he was born in a manger. You know, we know the story, right? But he came on the scene -- the Gospels tell us over -- I think it's 129 times they refer to Jesus as the one who was sent by the Father. And in that, there's such a mission, isn't there? Like, he was sent to do some things. He was sent to work. And so I've said before, I've asked, you know, are we saved by works? And, you know, all good Christians are going to say absolutely not, right? But the reality is we actually are saved by works, just not ours, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Good distinction. I love that.

Courtney Doctor: Yeah. And we need to make it really clear. If somebody had the vacuum on, we are not saved by our works ever, ever. I heard somebody say one time, the only thing we contribute to our salvation is the sin that necessitates it. Right?

Jennifer Rothschild: That's so true. That is so true.

Courtney Doctor: It's so true. But Jesus came to do some things, and we -- of course, the cross is the high point, his substitutionary death. But before that, the incarnation is part of that; he took on flesh. His perfectly sinless life is part of that, his perfect obedience to the Father is part of that, that he did everything Adam and Israel should have done along the way and didn't. And so he did it for us. And it's as a result then -- so he dies this substitutionary death, meaning it's the death I should die, but he died for me, and in my place he took my death.

But even that, I mean, the cross is this gloriously gruesome high point of the story, right? But it's the resurrection that testifies. I mean, if he didn't rise from the grave -- right? -- all of this would be in vain. So it's his resurrection that then -- everything is validated at that point and it is acceptable to the Father. And so then there's the ascension. He returns to the Father. And then there's Pentecost, and he pours out his spirit. All of this is part of his saving work. It culminates and it focuses on his death and resurrection. That's the center part of it. But these other parts of his salvation are important that we understand too, because they're not just -- we're not just saved for one day when we go to heaven; we're saved today. You know, we live a saved people today, and it's all of his life that impacts, that informs how we live today. We live in him. We live in his righteousness, his obedience, his faithfulness. That's what we live in.

Jennifer Rothschild: Courtney, as you say that, I'm reminded of being in middle school and sitting in my English classroom. And the teacher was describing elements of writing a good story and she got to the climax. And I remember her -- because I could see then. I remember her drawing a diagram, and the climax was, of course, as if we were looking at a triangle, you know, it would have been at the top of the triangle. But then she said there was falling action that led to the conclusion. And so you would go down the slope with the falling action to the conclusion, which would have been opposite of the beginning of the story.

And as I think of the story of Scripture, if -- because that is the climax of the story where Jesus, his death, his resurrection, his ascension, the whole thing, the whole Jesus part, there is no falling action from there. There really is not in the story of the Bible. Because, yes, we get to learn how to live out this reality in Christ through the epistles, through the letters. We get to learn that. We get to live that. That is not falling action. That is some good stuff right there.

Courtney Doctor: That's some good stuff.

Jennifer Rothschild: And then it leads to a climax, which is what you're calling glory. So we started at the garden and we're headed to glory.

But today, right now we find ourselves in that in-between, in the already and not yet, between the garden and the glory. Which I'm not going to call falling action like my middle school teacher did.

Courtney Doctor: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: I think it is still very rising action. So here's the question then. We've experienced Christ's first coming in the manger, and we are going to experience the grand finale, which is him coming again. But what about now? Okay? So what about now? How do we live out the story that God has entrusted to us as we're studying the story of Scripture? How do we live it out well with hope and with good stewardship? And by the way, Courtney, I will just say -- I could talk to you forever, but that's probably going to be our last question. So I want you to land this plane well, sister.

Courtney Doctor: Okay. Well, Lord help me do it. But I love the question. I mean, it's -- because that's where the rubber meets the road for us, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. That's where we live.

Courtney Doctor: Okay. When I sign off this call and I've got to go, you know, do some dishes and run some errands and -- you know, how does this matter? How does this impact the moments of my days, right? But that's what we need to know.

And so I think the first thing I would say is that it's the only reason that we're here. So there is a lag time for most of us between salvation and glory, this time when we will be free from all these things, suffering and sadness and sin and shame and all the things that just plague all of us. So why? Why is there this lag time? Why aren't we saved and just taken to glory? I mean, how wonderful would that be, right? But that's not how it is. And so there's a reason that we're here. And from the beginning, what we see is that God calls his people to participate with him. It is the most dignifying, kind thing that the Lord entrusts his people with his mission. It would have been so easy, easier, to say, Just get out of my way, I'm going to do this and it's going to, you know --

Jennifer Rothschild: Be done right, yeah.

Courtney Doctor: It's going to be done right. Y'all are going to stop messing this thing up.

But that's not what he does. Time and time again we see it. He just calls people into this mission. So with Adam and Eve it was, Hey, I'm going to put you in a garden, and your job is to fill the earth with my presence. Extend Eden until all the earth is filled with people who know and love and worship God, that was their call. And they got kicked out of Eden, and so -- but God re-instituted this mandate to go into all the world and to fill it. And then Jesus -- right? -- the Great Commission, go into all the world and fill it with people who know me and love me and worship me.

And so that is still our call today. That's what we're called to do, is to go into all the world. That can be on the other side of the globe, that can be right next door, that can be in book club, pickleball court, carpool line, you know, wherever -- the grocery store, wherever we find ourselves. How do we live? So if I said earlier that Jesus -- it says 129 times that -- it said he was sent. Well, in John 17 he says, "Father, just as you sent me, send them into the world." Just as, right? It's like when he says, "Just as the Father loved me, I loved you." It's like, wow, that's a lot, right? But, "Just as the Father sent me into the world, so I send you."

And so we're sent to live this missional life, to tell people -- to tell unbelievers about Jesus so that they'll come to know him and they'll be saved, to tell believers about Jesus, right? We need to speak the Gospel to each other all the time -- and that's discipleship -- so that we grow up in the Lord, so that we understand that all of our life is meant to serve this greater calling, this greater kingdom.

I remember hearing somebody say one time we all ask the Lord, "What is your will for my life?" But the better question is, "How can my life serve your will?" And I love that question. I love flipping that on its head and saying, you know, "How can my life serve your will? And how can I not build my kingdom, but how can my life serve your kingdom?"

And so, yeah, it's living in light of the story that God is redeeming all things. And he's using his people, meaning he's using you, whoever you are listening to this right now, he's using Jennifer, he's definitely using you. He's using all of us -- right? -- to do this thing, to seek and save the lost and to build a people for himself. And it's a huge privilege to live in light of that call, to live in light of the story.

Jennifer Rothschild: Let me repeat that question. How can my life serve your will? How can my life build your kingdom? Friends, let's live in light of the story. He is redeeming all things. He's using you. He's using all of us to do this thing. We are called to participate with him. And I love that it is dignifying and kind that he trusts us with this thing.

KC Wright: Courtney mentioned John 17. Just as Jesus is sent, we are sent. Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: Hey, guess what? We're giving away one of her books. So you can win it. Go to Show Notes right now at 413podcast.com/338 to get her book. And you know the drill. You can also read a full transcript of this rich, beautiful conversation right there. But you can also go straight to Jennifer's Instagram, @jennrothschild, to enter to win Courtney's book. And I hope you do.

Jennifer Rothschild: Me too. This conversation, y'all, just like the book, was so life-giving. And the book will be too, so you need it. So you need to get her books and her Bible studies. I love this woman, I trust this woman.

And by the way, I couldn't help but think about heaven as we talked. So if you haven't yet, check out my latest Bible study, "Heaven: When Faith Becomes Sight." We will also have a link to that at the Show Notes at 413podcast.com/338, or you can go straight to 413podcast.com/Heaven.

KC Wright: Okay, our people. Remember, whatever you face, however you feel, you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

Jennifer and KC: And you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: (Singing) Yes, you can. You can, you can, you can.

KC Wright: Until next time, we love you. Thanks for listening.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.