4:13 Podcast: Can I Quiet My Anxious Thoughts? With Jamie Grace [Episode 143]

Jennifer Rothschild: Anxious thoughts can lead to anxious feelings that can end up turning into panic. We've all been there. But our guest today, Jamie Grace, she lived there. She was diagnosed with Tourette syndrome, OCD, ADHD and anxiety. So for her, finding quiet felt almost impossible. Over the years, though, Jamie has found that through a combination of purposeful habits and her faith in Jesus, she can manage her thoughts and find quiet in order to hear God's voice louder than any other voice. So today she's going to share with you her brave and honest story. You are going to love hearing from this Grammy Award-winning singer and songwriter. So, K.C., let's kick it up.

K.C. Wright: Let's do this. Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you. Now, welcome your host. She may be blind, but she's looking straight into your heart, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's absolutely right. And I love what I see. I am Jennifer. If you're new to us, that was my seeing eye guy, K.C. And I'm just here to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you live this "I Can" life of Philippians 4:13. And y'all, it is just two friends, one topic --

Jennifer and K.C.: -- and zero stress.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's our favorite part, zero stress.

K.C. Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: In fact, we are talking today with this amazing singer-songwriter, Jamie Grace. And I got to tell you, I've got a favorite Jamie Grace song. It's probably one of her first ones, "I Love the Way You Hold Me."

K.C. Wright: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, so good. What about you, do you have a favorite? Jamie Grace?

K.C. Wright: Well, my favorite Jamie Grace song is more or less your theme song in life, "Do Life Big."

Jennifer Rothschild: Do life big.

K.C. Wright: That is a Jennifer Rothschild T-shirt in the works. Why are we not selling "Do Life Big" T-shirts at Fresh Grounded Faith?

Jennifer Rothschild: Because it would be, like, plagiarism, if it's a Jamie song. That's why, K.C.. But the concept.

K.C. Wright: You do like big.

Jennifer Rothschild: We do like big, you're right. In the way we love, we love big, we emote big. We do everything big. You know, you're going to love it today, you guys, when you hear from Jamie Grace, because you're going to hear about her life, what she experienced while she was writing those amazing songs that we love. She talks about the impact, because of the challenges, that she had with Tourette's and ADHD and OCD. And she'll explain all that. But she talked about how there was just a lot of noise in her life. And so what's really funny, K.C. -- you know, because I've just talked to her -- and so I was listening to the conversation and trying to edit some of it. So as I'm doing that, the TV is on in the living room, and my office is near the living room. And I'm like, Phil has been watching that TV for a long time, and he's not a big TV watcher. So I finally go in there, and there was no one there. It is just nothing but audio clutter. He left the TV on, you know. Or he probably had it on pause and it came on, whatever. But it was just nothing but audio clutter. It drives me crazy. That is one of my pet peeves. Like, I want purposeful noise, I don't want audio clutter. So because we, you know, are like the same person, you're the male version of me --

K.C. Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- I'm curious, can -- because you're a man, and men can tune out things sometimes.

K.C. Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Can you tune out audio clutter?

K.C. Wright: Well, I like noise in my house.

Jennifer Rothschild: You do?

K.C. Wright: I don't like silence.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh.

K.C. Wright: Hmm-mm.

Jennifer Rothschild: Why is that? Should we psychologically analyze that right now in front of all our friends?

K.C. Wright: I can hardly even work when I'm knocking out my to-do list without some kind of soundtrack playing in the background. I love motivational music, instrumental worship music on in the house all the time.

Jennifer Rothschild: So you like that.

K.C. Wright: Yeah. I don't like quiet, no.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's interesting.

K.C. Wright: Yeah, isn't it?

Jennifer Rothschild: Because I love silence. I thrive in it and I cannot even ignore music. Like, if I'm playing music or have music on in the house, it's because I intend to listen to it. And I like analyzing the chord progression and paying attention to the lyrics. It's ridiculous. So I think that's probably why I need the silence, so that my brain will just quiet down. But it's interesting how we all have ways that we find quiet. Because probably, K.C., music for you actually helps you quiet anxious thoughts, you know.

K.C. Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so I think that's why this is going to be a really interesting conversation for us today on what it means to find quiet. So let's meet Jamie.

K.C. Wright: Well, yes. Let me introduce you to our God's girl, Jamie Grace. Jamie is a two-time Grammy-nominated singer, songwriter and actress. Jamie actively advocates for joy, wellness and mental health through the lens of music, film and faith. She's the host of the Jamie Grace Podcast. When she isn't touring, Jamie lives in Southern California with her husband, Aaron, and daughter, Isabella Brave. She's the author of "Finding Quiet." And that's the book she and Jennifer will talk about today. So are you ready for this? I need you to get ready to get inspired.

Jennifer Rothschild: Jamie, you and I have something in common because we are PK's. And for those who aren't listening, they may not know that that means preachers' kids. Am I right?

Jamie Grace: Yeah. That's awesome. I didn't know that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. It's a special way to grow up. And there's also a little bit of pressure associated with growing up that way. But most of us know you as a singer and a rapper. I mean, I love your music. It lifts me and it makes me smile. And it's just -- I love it. But I know that your back story hasn't always been full of just total light moments where you're smiling, you know, that you've dealt with some difficult things. You've had a mental health diagnosis. And so I want you to kind of share with us how you came to understand that you struggled with anxious thoughts and what all that was like for you.

Jamie Grace: Yeah, definitely. You know, I was 11 when I was diagnosed with anxiety in addition to Tourette syndrome, OCD and ADHD. And that was -- the Tourette syndrome, which is tic disorder, was the primary source of my complications at the time, just because my physical tics were so out of control that I didn't really have a lot of time to even process the anxiousness and the anxious thoughts, if you will. And I think a lot of it I just kind of processed as stuff that was just, like, happening, if that makes sense --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Jamie Grace: -- because I was just so caught up in the tics and all that kind of thing. It really wasn't until about high school or college that I realized, like, wow, these thoughts that I'm having that are debilitating, this is not what everybody goes through, you know. And even though most people experience some kind of anxiousness or worry, I started to kind of realize that it was debilitating for me in a totally different way. Yeah, so my tics started when I was about nine years old and then my diagnosis when I was 11. But it was just so hyper focused on the physicality and the vocal tics that were just causing interruptions in everyday life. And then as I got older, I started to kind of think, like, maybe I should start some therapy or something to, you know, get the anxiousness under control.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, yeah, because you're just dealing with the four-alarm fire, you know, of the Tourette's.

Jamie Grace: Right. Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So it's hard to deal with all the little sparks of the anxiety, not that they're little. But I have known some friends with children with Tourette's, and it is a very mysterious thing for those who don't understand it.

Jamie Grace: Right, right.

Jennifer Rothschild: So would you explain that. So when you said tics -- you said physical tics and sometimes verbal. So did you grow out of that? So tell us how that manifests, how those of us who are looking in can understand what's happening, and did you end up growing out of it?

Jamie Grace: So Tourette syndrome, it's a neurobiological condition and it's characterized by tics. And so basically, you know, the most common tics, or even twitches as some people call them, would be like blinking and squeezing your hand shut, like balling into a fist. And the same with your feet. Some kicking. Mine was kind of like the leg bending. So just, like, imagine the heel of my foot going to my rear and then my arms bending.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Jamie Grace: So that was every -- from ages 9 to 15, that was about every 10 to 15 seconds, my arms, legs, hands and feet, as well as my eyes. And I gradually developed a tic where my chin would kind of thrust down into my neck or my chin into my upper chest. And so sometimes to kind of prevent that or to throw it off, I would try to turn my head the other way. But then that would cause issues in the car. I was hitting my head against the car window and stuff. And so those were just kind of like the start of my tics. Those are also kind of some of the more common ones when you're dealing with especially adolescents with Tourette. And then sometimes there can be physically harmful tics as well. So sometimes it would be like hitting myself in the stomach or hitting my forearm with the palm of my other hand. And then the vocal tics as well. You know, oftentimes just (coughing), like those types of sounds.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

Jamie Grace: And so I was medicated on and off ages 9 to 15. Nothing really was incredibly beneficial, but it was just something that we just had to try. I mean, it was the only option. And so sometimes it would be helpful. But ultimately, I went off to college at 16, and I just really wanted to try to not be on medication when I went to college, so we kind of had, like, a family agreement, you know, like what the plan was going to be. So I went to college that was 30 minutes away. I stayed on campus, but I was in the same building as my older sister. I was to make sure that -- we learned certain things would help my tics, if you will.

Jennifer Rothschild: Sure.

Jamie Grace: To answer if it's gone away, it definitely hasn't. But it has subsided because I'm just much older now. Typically after puberty it starts to kind of balance out. So I'm almost 30 and I've kind of learned to manage it. And so I've learned that when -- and I want to make this super, super, super clear. I'm not at all saying that, like, oh, if you pray, your tics will stop. That's not what I'm saying.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Jamie Grace: But I have learned, at least personally, that there are things that I can do to help manage it with my diet, with my spiritual health. So I just had, like, kind of a family agreement when I went off to college. Like I go to chapel, these friends know what's going on. They make sure that I go to class. You know, schedules help me balance my anxiety, and balancing my anxiety helps balance my tics. So it didn't go away, but I just learned different ways to kind of manage it as I got older.

Jennifer Rothschild: Sure. Which I think is interesting too, what you described, is it's really a holistic approach that you've taken, which is -- you know, we are fearfully and wonderfully made, and it is -- everything we experience is always going to be physical, spiritual, emotional. And I think it's interesting that that's also part of the way you've managed. But I would like to just take one more minute to go back to that 11- to 15-year-old girl. Okay?

Jamie Grace: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: So when I was 15, I lost the majority of my eyesight and I became blind. So you looked at me and I looked normal, but then I couldn't function normally. Right? So there were many instances where I was super aware, I felt embarrassed. I felt dumb, I felt like I looked stupid. People who didn't know would say things that were unkind. And so I'm listening to your story and thinking, man, you can't control these tics.

Jamie Grace: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Teenagers are not always the most kind people.

Jamie Grace: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: So how did you manage that? How did that impact your sense of self or identity, your relationship with God, all that?

Jamie Grace: Yeah, I mean, it's almost like I can just answer by saying, like, all of the above, you know. It had a negative impact on everything, you know. I will say the main thing I'm grateful for -- and especially when my childhood comes up, I try to make sure that I acknowledge the privilege that I come from in that I have an exceptional family. Now, don't get me wrong, like, we're human, so --

Jennifer Rothschild: Sure.

Jamie Grace: -- there's some hot mess express moments as well. But my mom and dad are remarkable humans, and my older sister is remarkable. And so I had, like, this incredible safe space every time I stepped back into our home. I knew that it was a place where I could feel what I needed to feel, and I would be met with an understanding that God is with you through this pain, or God is with you through this joy, or God is with you through this inability to understand how you feel, you know.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Jamie Grace: I was always met with that. I was always met with music and instruments and dancing and good food, and just everything about my upbringing, I think, helped me prepare for the trauma that I experienced outside of the home. To be honest, I dealt with a lot of bullying from other kids. I was never physically bullied, and I'm grateful for that. And I know that -- people that are physically bullied, like, I can't imagine what that's like. But I dealt with just, like, a lot of other teenagers, like, mocking my tics, like, my physical tics, and trying to --there is an associated condition where you might -- some of your vocal tics might be like obscene words. And that's not something that I personally struggle with, but I just remember kids always trying to trigger that in me and trying to kind of fabricate or create that in me. And so that was -- that was challenging as well. And, you know, it also was difficult as I, you know, got into my twenties as well when it came to dating and when it, you know, got into, like, okay, like, also being a public figure and things like that. Which that started around 16 or 17 years old of, you know, being on a kid's television show and stuff. So I'm just really grateful that I had the foundation that I had, because, you know, I had some friends that were cool, you know, like, I definitely don't want to paint -- like, I just --

Jennifer Rothschild: Of course.

Jamie Grace: -- didn't know any good people.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. Of course.

Jamie Grace: But ultimately, it was just like, I just always wanted to go home. And it wasn't in, like, a I want to go home 'cause I want to hide away. It was like, I want to go home because I know I'm safe there and I know that I'm loved there and I know my best friend is there. And so I'm just really grateful that I had that foundation.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know, Jamie, that's a good word. There are some moms listening right now who might have a child, and every time that child leaves for school they they feel that nervousness of, oh, what are they going to endure today? How are they going to be made fun of? You know, there's some kids out there and I think there's some moms who needed to hear that. It is so valid that when your home is a safe space, it helps to juxtaposition some of the heartache that they experience when they're not at home. And I love that your home was a place of encouragement and music and laughter and a respite from that outside noise. That's such a good encouragement. And I also am just -- I just got to say -- I want us to talk about several more things, because I want to get to your book. But I want you to know that I believe that so much of what I'm hearing in your story and in your voice is a reflection of how you faithfully walked through every circumstance that you experienced and what could have been used to define you and take you down has been used to refine you and make you a woman with a lot of depth. And your platform credibility is not just because you have a beautiful voice and you can dance and you can sing and you can do all that good stuff --

Jamie Grace: Thank you.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- but it's because you have a relationship with the Lord. And I'm so glad now that you've written a book, because I think that's going to help deepen and multiply your message.

Jamie Grace: Thank you.

Jennifer Rothschild: So let's just get to this book, because I love it. Because in your book -- it's called "Finding Quiet" -- you talk about that your world was noisy. Okay?

Jamie Grace: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So explain what you mean by the noise in life.

Jamie Grace: Yeah, you just heard my whole story. Like, I dealt with the typical young person noise, just like navigating friendships and all the stuff, and then also, like, literally having a tic disorder where I make a lot of noise. And then getting kind of -- in a beautiful way, like a graceful toss into the spotlight in my teen years. You know, I like to kind of jokingly call myself a teen star, which has actually in, like, therapy has really helped me process, like, a lot the way I feel sometimes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, sure, yeah, it's legit.

Jamie Grace: Yeah, as a teen star, you know. I got famous at 17 being on a TV show with TBN, and then I started touring the country sharing my original songs. And so there was a lot of noise there. And even with my career, noise is kind of the concept of success, especially in the entertainment industry. You know, it's how much noise can you make, how high on the charts can you be, you know, how, like -- even on the level of, like, being a street performer, if you're singing and playing your guitar, it's like you got to get everybody to stop in their tracks. You can't do that by being quiet. You got to be the best of the best, the loudest of the loudest, and you got to get people to stop in their tracks and, you know, you got to sell out the most tickets for every concert, you know. If it's a sold-out tour, you got to promote that. If you get number two on the charts, you got to work harder next time so you can get number one. The gauge of success is based on noise. Which is also something in traditional life as well when it comes to, like, how much did you pay for your car? Like, oh, you have a Tesla. Did you lease it or did you buy it cash?

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Jamie Grace: Like, what kind of job do you have? How nice is your mini van? Oh, you still have to close the doors with your arm, you don't have the little button that just does it automatically? You know, it's like how much, what volume, what capacity, and I just -- I mean, I'm just navigating all of these things in my twenties and just realizing that I'm not finding any peace, I'm not finding any quiet, I'm not finding any rest because I feel like I'm constantly just working to get more and to be more and to be seen and to be known, and there's no -- it's almost like joy was becoming fabricated because I was missing that respite, I was missing that safe space. I had to ask myself, when did I feel safe, when did I feel peace, when did I feel quiet? And for me, that was growing up in this home that was really good at providing quiet and finding quiet. And I realized that I had lost that in my twenties, and this book is honestly just my journey to going back and finding it.

Jennifer Rothschild: How did you navigate the emotions that went with all the noise, with all the pressure, with all the success and how it affected your relationships?

Jamie Grace: I just buried it, and I buried it, I buried it until it just -- honestly, it just got so loud and so overwhelming that I just kind of have to make a major move. And so I just -- I walked away from a record label at 24 in the slap dead middle of a really successful career. And I was like, "Bye." And I bought a house that I spent a lot of time in alone. And I want to clarify that this was not my isolation period. This was a place of solitude and it was a place of healing. And it was only 20 minutes from my parents, and I was with them regularly, I started back in therapy. And I was just like, I need to find quiet. I need to find like -- I need to find something. I need to find hope. I need to find joy. And I think it's helpful, too. like, if someone's listening, and they're a Christian and they're a believer, like, you know, this was not a loss of faith. This was simply an aspect of my relationship with God where I lost some coping mechanisms -- if that makes sense maybe --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Jamie Grace: -- or just some of the peace that He brings, you know. I have so much joy, like so much joy, and I had so much hope that things would get better, but I was just lacking the ability to sit down and say, okay, well, what does that look like and how can I be a part of of getting there?

Jennifer Rothschild: (inaudible)

Jamie Grace: Yeah. Because quiet, like, yes, it can be literal quiet. Like, my mom is one of those turn off the radio in the car and just listen to the trees outside the window kind of people. Like, she's just, like, (inaudible). And I'm like, "Mom, ADHD, like I can't ." You know, my mom is one of those. And I think that's great, like, quiet is a beautiful thing. But I have to learn how to kind of ask myself, like, if I can't change the people around me -- and I had some negative influences in my life -- like, I can't change them. That's not my responsibility. I can't change the music industry. Like, you know, I'm not going to be like, oh, I'm going to wag my finger and complain about all of this. Like, I can't do that. But I can choose to be intentional about what I am or am not adding into my own life. And so, you know, I kind of like -- I kind of went quiet. Like at 25 people -- I remember when I was 25 and I'm really getting e-mails all the time, people were like, Are you ever going to release music? What is Jamie Grace up to? What are you doing? I was just sitting in this house all by myself playing piano, just finding quiet, finding solitude, finding peace that had nothing to do with charts or success or the public eye or anything else. And God showed up, you know. He never left. But I really embraced His presence and it really helped transform, you know, that season that I was in.

Jennifer Rothschild: I've read that it's like over 40 million adults who struggle with mental illness, and so that means somebody is listening right now who's been on a similar journey. Maybe not the exact symptoms and manifestations, but they know what you're talking about, they deal with some mental illness challenges. So what would you say to encourage them as we end?

Jamie Grace: You know, I know I kind of hinted to this before, but I think one of the most important things to remember is that you're not alone. I remember one of the harder -- hardest moments for me in my mental health journey was after my daughter was born and being diagnosed with postpartum depression. And that was difficult because my life is different now, you know, someone is dependent on me. And that was just a really scary diagnosis. And I didn't want to talk to my friends about it. You know, I have friends that are single, married, and friends with kids, and I didn't want to talk to any of them about it because it was just so humiliating and it felt so debilitating and there were just so many different things that just made me want to isolate. But I remember when I kind of started to casually talk about it with a friend and she just started sharing her experience back with me. And my mind was blown, like, at all of the tiny little things that I thought were tiny little things that she was like, no, I've experienced that exact detail, and just realizing that I wasn't alone. Sometimes we're looking for a cure, we're looking for a solution, we're looking for, you know -- for me, my book is filled with, like, step one, two, three, because that's just how my brain works. I'm like, Okay, guys, we're gonna fix the problem. But sometimes that's not what's going to happen. You know, I'm a huge believer, and that's why heaven exists, because that's where we're going to get all the things figured out. So sometimes it's about, well, will you sit with me through this, and will you listen to me talk about this, and will you talk to me about what you're going through. And those things -- I'm not saying that it's better than a cure or it's better than a fix, but it is such a huge help and it's a lot more significant than we may think. And so if you do have a mental health diagnosis of anxiety or depression or bipolar, or whatever it might be, and you're feeling isolated and you're feeling alone and you're feeling detached and disconnected, like, if anything, know that I've been there. You know, I get that. I understand that. And it sucks. And I'm not here to tell you it's going to get better in five minutes or tomorrow or even next month, but I am here to tell you that there's at least me to tell you that you're not alone. And your friend, neighbor, mom, dad, therapist, pastor, guidance counselor at your university, whoever it might be, there is someone else you can talk to. And even if they don't fully understand everything you're going through, I can promise you that they can -- somebody is there to walk with you through this and to help you process and understand and to, at the very least, be a listening ear, which is a really big deal. so you're not alone. I know it feels like you're alone. And if you're in a room by yourself right now, then, okay, yeah. If you want to be analytical, maybe you're alone. But in the grand scheme of things, you're not alone, I can absolutely promise you that.

K.C. Wright: You are not alone. Jamie's right, you are never alone, my friend. We never walk alone.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's right. The Lord is with you. And so if you identify with any of the struggles that Jamie described today and you may not have gotten any help yet, I hope this conversation will serve as the voice of your heavenly father prompting you to find healing. So we're going to even have a link on the show notes at 413podcast.com/143, just to a counseling resource, so that you can connect there. But just know you can always connect with a mature friend, with a pastor, just somebody that can help you and help you realize that you are not alone. And I promise you, there is somebody on the other side of your brave reaching out, and they are ready to help you, so let them.

K.C. Wright: Yes. Because you are not alone, ever. You also may know a young person who grew up listening to Jamie and would really benefit and enjoy her story, so please do share this podcast with them. And get this, we're giving away one of her books. simply go to Jennifer's Insta profile. That's how you win the good stuff around here. Little secret between us. You got to follow Jen on Instagram. You simply go to @JenRothschild. Now, the reason I follow Jennifer on Instagram is because daily I'm encouraged by a post. I'm serious, every single day she is speaking straight to my heart with an Instagram post.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's a goal.

K.C. Wright: So enter to win right there at JenRothschild on Instagram, or go to the show notes at 413podcast.com/143 to find a link to Jennifer's Instagram. Also at the show notes, we will have links to all things Jamie Grace so you can get connected with her and her music that's straight from heaven.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Listen, you guys, there's some good stuff today, wasn't there? I mean, just a good day. And I want to say this as we say goodbye, something that really struck me. Do you remember, K.C., she said how her home was a safe space where she could process all the hurts and confusion from outside. And she said it was a place of music and dancing and good food. And I thought, you know what, let's make our homes that safe place too. Even if we're the only one who lives in that home, let's make it a place of music and dancing and laughter and safety. We can. So remember, if you need to find quiet, you can because you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

K.C. Wright: I can.

Jennifer and K.C.: And you can.

K.C. Wright: It's true. Yeah, what father doesn't want to hear his kids laugh in their house --

Jennifer Rothschild: I know.

K.C. Wright: -- in his house, right? Yeah, our Father wants to hear us laugh in His house.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's right. So we need to turn up the Jamie Grace, live loud, live big.

K.C. Wright: Hey, I was pretty impressed when you were singing that song of hers.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love the way you hold me. That's the only words I can remember.

K.C. Wright: Sing it.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's all I know.

K.C. Wright: Do life big. We love y'all.