4:13 Podcast: Can I Loosen My Grip of Control? With Shannon Popkin [Episode 154]

Jennifer Rothschild: No one wants to think of themselves as controlling, but when a little change of plans causes an eruption or when an itty-bitty unexpected event dislodges an avalanche of worry, we've got to consider that maybe we have an issue with control. Control is a burden that weighs us down and it strains our relationships. It causes us to become the worst version of ourselves. But today we're loosening our grip and Author Shannon Popkin is going to help us. We're going to find the encouragement that we need to lay down our burden of control and pick up peace, security, and joy instead. Sounds good, doesn't it? So here we go.

K.C. Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and Biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you. Now, your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hello, our people. That was my seeing eye guy, K.C. Wright, and we are so glad you're here. We have one goal, and it's just to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you live this "I can" life of Philippians 4:13. Christ will strengthen you to do, Christ will empower you to be all that he has called you and created you to do and be, so you can just tap in to the power that is Christ in you and live through his strength. And I'm telling you, we need that, especially when it comes to a topic like today. Because some of us, we got white knuckles when it comes to gripping control. And I'm telling you, this was really a rich conversation. So substantial, so practical. So I want us to get right to it.

K.C. Wright: Sounds good to me, because I really don't want to confess that I am a control freak. All right? So let me introduce to you Shannon Popkin. She's a writer, speaker, and Bible teacher who loves to blend her gifts for storytelling and humor with her passion for Scripture. What a combo. She's the author of "Control Girl: Lessons on Surrendering Your Burden of Control from Seven Women in the Bible" and "Comparison Girl." She's been featured on Family Life Today, Revive Our Hearts and, Proverbs 31. Shannon and her husband, Ken, have been married for 25 years and live in West Michigan. They have three young adult children and two Shi Tzus.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ahhh. Just like Lucy.

K.C. Wright: Who, unlike the kids, have no plans of moving out.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, that's true.

K.C. Wright: You're going to love this lady. So here is Shannon Popkin with Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Shannon, let's just call it out with the very first question. When did you realize that you had an issue with control?

Shannon Popkin: You know, Jennifer, it was not immediate for me. You know, maybe like a decade ago, if you would have brought this issue to me or said, "Hey, there's this book called 'Control Girl'," I would have thought that's for everybody else, not me. And, you know, really, I think it was in my marriage where it first started becoming evident that I have this unhealthy desire to control more than what is mine to control. And so I think it has shown up in my marriage and in my parenting especially. But really just like in all facets of life, as God has opened my eyes -- first in my marriage, but, oh my goodness, I have just seen it in lots of different places that I was not aware. And that, I think, is kind of common. I think women -- they often tell me, like, "Ooo, I didn't realize I had as much of an issue with control as I do."

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, and I was going to ask you that. Do most women know it? But here would be my question, Shannon. I think there's external things that give us signals that we're controlling, and there's internal. So when you became aware, was it the externals or the internals that hit you first that became your biggest clues? Because relationally, if I'm controlling to my husband, he and I aren't going to get along well. He's going to push back, he's going to bristle, et cetera, and so his reaction to me could be this external trigger. When I've done it in the past, sometimes I'll think, well, what is wrong with him? OK? So give me a clue, because I think that helps us understand, for those of us who have trouble recognizing if we're being controlling, what are some real obvious triggers?

Shannon Popkin: Yeah. You know, I think I would -- I remember standing in the kitchen with my husband and saying, "I was always so cheerful and carefree before I met you." Like, I really thought he was 100 percent of the problem of, you know, the strain in our marriage. And so -- but, yeah, I -- where God started opening my eyes first was in my anger. So, I mean, this anger is spewing out of me in my marriage or just -- usually private. I don't get angry in public that much.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Shannon Popkin: It was usually, like, where I felt the safest, you know, and I'm getting angry over all of these little things. And I knew I had a problem with anger. You know, I was journaling about my anger, I was reading books about my anger. But for me, it was -- I was listening to this broadcast where Dee Brestin was talking about these deeper sins that we are not aware of, these core issues, and she mentioned the sin of control. And she said sometimes we have these surface level things that we do see, but they're tied to something deeper. And when she mentioned that inner desire for control, I thought, oh, I think maybe that's my problem. And it really wasn't until I started dealing with the control, you know, which was tied to my anger, I didn't get traction with my anger until I started asking myself, OK, you are about to blow. Is there something here you're trying to control, you know, or is there something you feel that you're losing control of? And when I started tying those together and dealing with, you know, the deeper thing, the control thing, that's when I started having some traction with my anger. And so, you know, those negative emotions that surface, you know, like anger and anxiety is the same fear, you know, tension in relationships, those often are the things that signal to us. They're, like, these little dashboard indicators that sometimes we have more of an issue with control than we originally thought.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, girl, you are there -- I'm identifying, and I know a lot of our listeners are. I mean, this is a big thing. So you're saying all those surface emotions and responses, they're like the fruit. But there's always a deeper root. So, yeah, we can cut off the fruit and pray about the fruit as much as possible, of course, but until we deal with the root.

Shannon Popkin: Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, this is very convicting. And control is a root. I'm grateful that you're being that specific, because that really helps us. And so I know when we are behaving in a controlling way, it's rarely because we want to be, you know, a dictator. I mean, our motivation is usually pretty well intentioned and pure, but it tends to lead to misery rather than the outcome we're looking for. So why is that? Why doesn't it work?

Shannon Popkin: Right. You know, we do, we have these great intentions. We just -- you know, we see ourselves as invested. You know, we control because we care. We're not trying to exasperate anybody, you know, we're not trying to frustrate people. But, you know, we have this urgency. We think it's all up to us. You know, there's this logic that goes through my mind, and it's really fast, it's like, you've got to take control of this. And if you don't, you know, what's going to happen? And I see in myself that I have this own version of a happy ending that I'm trying to create, and really what I'm trying to do is take over for God, you know. I'm trying to step in for him, stand in for him. And nobody who tries to replace God does a very good job of it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah.

Shannon Popkin: I mean, first, we don't actually have control, you know --

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Shannon Popkin: -- so when we try to control things and manage all of the contingencies, like you just said, we become the worst version of ourselves, like we -- we're not good at trying to control it all. And then second, like, when we do try to take control, you know, we just insert a lot of negative things. You know, we become frantic or obsessive or, you know, perfectionistic, and those are the things that actually push people away from us.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yep.

Shannon Popkin: And so, you know, we're, like, opting out of the very influence that we do have. You know, we're not God, but we can have -- we do have influence and we need to steward that influence by reminding ourselves that, you know, there is a God and it's not us.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow. Shannon, you just said something too that bears repeating. You said when we become controlling, we opt out of the influence God has given us. What we're trying to do is have influence. We're literally opting out of it and letting the enemy hijack it basically and use it for wrong and for everything that we're not intending. That's a powerful thought. And so this process, though, girl, you got to do some soul work in the background, because you don't just go, "Oh, I heard this on a podcast. OK, I'm standing in the kitchen and everything's falling apart and so I'm going to remember not to opt out of it!" No. You got to do some soul work. So encourage those of us who hear this and are thinking, oh, my goodness, Shannon knows me so well. How do I start with this? What do I do when I realize this is me? I can't fix it all at once. What's a good first way to start to attack this issue?

Shannon Popkin: Well, you know, the opposite of control is surrender, right? And it's not just surrendering -- it's not just this passivity giving in to people or situations, it's really surrendering control to God. I think that is the key. And just reminding ourselves, you know, we don't have to be controlling women. We can live the way that we were originally intended to live. You know, I think it's really interesting, Jennifer, that God had this tree in the middle of the garden that they weren't supposed to eat from. You know, because when I don't want my kids to have something, I don't put it in the middle of the room, you know, or the middle of the table. Like, why'd God put that tree in the middle? And I think this tree, it was posing a question like, Are you going to let me be God? Are you going to surrender to me? You know, Are you going to let me decide what is good for you and what is bad for you? Are you going to take that fruit and try to be God? And so, like, instead of being in control, surrendering is saying, God, I'm going to let you be in control, and that, you know -- so surrender is the key to transformation. And I kind of like to break up surrender into two types of surrender. So, like, I think of it like there's this big arrow surrender where I'm giving God control in some big life-altering way. You know, like I think of you with your blindness, right? That was something really big.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. You just got to let it go, mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin: Right, to lay it on the altar. I mean, that took -- that was a big thing in your life. I can't even imagine what that would -- you know, how that would be to grapple with surrendering my sight, you know. Or for some of us it's, like, losing somebody that we love, right? Or it's repenting of, you know, a wrong relationship or an addiction.

Jennifer Rothschild: Sure.

Shannon Popkin: You're giving up my plan. So there's these big things that we lay down on the altar. And when we do that, like, that's transformative.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Shannon Popkin: That's where we have to -- you know, we have to recognize I'm not in control. I thought I was, and then I'm faced with this thing and I'm not in control. So I'm giving control to God with these big things. But I think that you and I probably both know people who would say, Oh, yeah, I've given God control. He's my God, I've given him everything, and then, you know, they live like they're still trying to control it all.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Shannon Popkin: Right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Shannon Popkin: And, I mean, I definitely see that in myself.

Jennifer Rothschild: Me too, mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin: And so I think that the transformation, it's not just surrendering, you know, in that first, like, I'm giving God my life, you know. Not to minimize that. That is what -- you know, everything has to follow that first moment of giving God control. But I think the transformation is in these small little-by-little-by-little ways, you know, like hundreds of ways in a day where I'm saying, you know, Not my will, but yours be done, God. Not my will, but yours. Like, what will I eat? What will I watch? What will I buy, you know? And what will I say? You know, if we want to have one starting point, I love it that James 3 compares our tongues to a rudder. You know, because if we want to go -- if we want to about-face and go in a different direction rather than becoming more and more and more controlling and we want to be more like Jesus little by little by little saying, Not my will, but yours be done, then, you know, we can start with our tongues. Like, what am I going to say in this situation? Because really, it's our tongues that we often use -- especially as women --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Shannon Popkin: -- to try to control your situation or other people. And so laying that down. What will I say? What will I say? What will I say? And these little ways, these are how we give control back to God.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's a beautiful thought. You know, it reminds me, Shannon, as you were describing that, my brother is a therapist. And one of the concepts he has talked about in the past was this idea of when you're in a situation and you're feeling the pressure -- because this control habit's a hard one to die to as we surrender it --

Shannon Popkin: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- you ask the question, What is my opposite impulse? So if my impulse right now is to control, then my opposite impulse is to surrender. And I think your advice about the tongue is a very practical way to make that concrete. Because it is -- you're right, James does call it a rudder. But it can turn everything around. That little tiny tongue can make a big impact. I appreciate that so much. But here's my concern with it. OK? So when it's just us and it's just us and God and we can work this thing -- but we're not the only control girls. We have people in our families who might be controlling. We have maybe friends or people we work with who might be controlling. So how do we deal with those people -- whom we love and we want to respect them, we want to have, you know, boundaries, but we want to have harmony. So how do you deal with controlling people?

Shannon Popkin: Right. Yes, I think that is one of the key parts of this conversation. One of the things, though, that I can see in myself is that the most controlling women in the room are bothered by the other controlling woman in the room. Like she wants what I want, we both want control. And, you know, the more passive, sweet, you know, surrendered women of God in the room, they're not grappling with this quite as much as I am.

Jennifer Rothschild: I have no idea what you're talking about right now. No idea, Shannon. Oh, my goodness. Yes, you nailed that, Sister.

Shannon Popkin: Right? So I think -- you know, when we're dealing with these other controlling people, I think starting with ourselves is always key. So, you know, first getting on my knees and grappling with my own desire for control. And, you know, I'd like to circle back to what your -- your brother, you said, is a therapist?

Jennifer Rothschild: Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin: And, you know, that opposite impulse like -- surrender is not just this easy. Like, you know, we often think of surrender as, like, lifting my hands and --

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Shannon Popkin: -- you know, the serene music's playing "I Surrender All," you know.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Shannon Popkin: But I think surrender looks more like that gritty battle of Jesus in the garden, on his knees with his sweat like great drops of blood. Like, that is what surrender looks like to me. And it really looks that way when I'm trying to surrender this other controlling woman in my life, you know, especially in those closest relationships. And so it is this gritty battle of getting on my knees and first surrendering myself -- right? -- before God and seeing like, OK, what I see in her, I need to hold up a mirror. Because when I talk about her, when I'm frustrated with her, like, really, am I not kind of the same? Right? And then, you know, realizing that what she needs and what I need, they're both the same thing.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Shannon Popkin: We both need to surrender to God. And how about if I go first?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Shannon Popkin: How about if I get on my knees and do this gritty battle in my closet and surrender to God, and that is one way that I can influence her. You know, if I'm just trying to dig in even -- dig my heels in more and grip my fingers tighter, like, she's just going to do the same. But if I can approach her with a surrendered heart -- not to her, I'm not just completely giving in to her, but I am surrendering control to God -- I can't change her. And she might never change. But I can influence her. Right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Shannon Popkin: And I can trust God. I think trusting God with the end of the story, like, how this is all going to work out, you know. Well, what if she this, what if she that. Well, you know, God can manage that. And for me -- Jennifer, this is a really helpful practice. What I like to do is in my mind's eye, put myself on my knees and put the other control girl on her knees and have us both be facing God. And I like to pray over both of us together --

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Shannon Popkin: -- you know. Because like I said, what she needs and what I need, it's the same. We both need to let God be God.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, and if you've got that image in your mind, you're not controlling anybody, you're just simply submitting. And, Shannon, everything you've shared is impossible without trust. You've said it a couple of times, the word "trust." But as you share, I just can't keep but thinking that if you don't trust God, you will not surrender. If you don't trust God, you will try to control everything because, like you said earlier, you're trying to be God. And I think that's one place, too, where we constantly -- yes, we trust Jesus for our salvation. But we also have to constantly daily -- because our flesh is so weak sometimes -- just kind of remind ourselves that, no, we trust him not just with our salvation, but with how our husband is responding to us at the moment, and our kids, and everything else that sometimes we have a tendency to try to control. And that would be an area I would be curious about, too. There's some moms listening. And, you know, they may not call it controlling parenting, but their kids may, you know. How does a mom know if she's being controlling when she's truly trying to do her best? But how does she know if she's being controlling?

Shannon Popkin: You know, with parenting it's tricky, because a good mom is managing her children, right? Like, we have to be in control as moms. And so I have this little principle that I like to keep in mind, and it's the hold and fold principle. And I borrowed this from another author. But it's like, you know, all of life is kind of divided into two categories: what I can control and what I can't. And so what I can control is basically myself. Right? And so holding is holding responsibility for myself, having self-control. And then I need to fold my hands, you know, in surrender to God with the rest of life. And so when I first get that little newborn baby, you know, I am completely holding, I am the one who needs to manage this little baby's life. I need to be self-controlled. I need to put this child's needs before my own, and I need to manage what they eat and, you know, their safety, their environment. But by the time that child is an adult, well, now my job is to fold my hands and surrender to God. And, you know, all throughout that child's life, it's the process of transferring holding responsibility for them to folding in all the, you know, hundreds and thousands of little decisions and little areas of life.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Shannon Popkin: And, you know, I mean, it's tricky to know when do I hold, when do I fold. Especially when they're like about seven or eight --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Shannon Popkin: -- because they're gaining independence. And so I like to say, you know, if your child is still crawling into your lap, then your job is mostly to hold, to hold responsibility and to -- you know, you need to be in control as a mom. But once your child -- you know, they don't want to sit on your lap, they're too big, they're independent, well, then your job has begun to begin. Not entirely, you know, you don't just hand them the keys of their life at age eight. But, you know, we spend a lot more time as moms, a lot -- a greater portion of their life is spent surrendering control to God and managing control, you know, as their moms. And I think God set it up that way. Giving him our kids is some of the most difficult heartache of our lives, and yet God wants to be both our God and their God.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Shannon Popkin: He doesn't want our kids to see us as the God. He wants for us to teach them, You know what? God's actually in control. You're answering to him and you can trust him. He's got you. He sees you, he loves you, and he has this beautiful plan for your life. So I think it's just, you know, reminding them of the One who actually is in control with our mothering.

Jennifer Rothschild: You had answered something similar when I was talking about our pure intentions, you know, are never to manipulate, but things turn out poorly. And when it comes to parenting, I think that's what happens. It's always our best, most purest motivation, but it ends up doing the opposite of what we're actually wanting for our children and for us. And so I think it's a good word, Shannon. This whole conversation, Sister, really good stuff. I know women are going to want your book, and I'm curious -- In fact, let me just kind of -- this will be our last question. And so tell me how -- all right. So if a woman is realizing, you know, OK, I didn't realize I was so controlling and I want to start to work on this -- you've already talked about surrender and trust and the tongue and -- super practical advice, which, by the way, will be in the show notes for our listeners. But in your book "Control Girls," you literally -- you found some in the Bible, which are actually very affirming to me. I'm thankful. So based on those women in your book from the Scripture, which one would you say, Listen, this one right here, she's the one who I most identified with, and if you're struggling with control, you know, why don't you start with her, too?

Shannon Popkin: Right. Well, I mean, I can't bypass Eve because I think it all started with her. Right? But, you know, I just see in her -- she took the fruit, she wanted to be in control, and God -- you know, he said, Now you're going to be controlling. That's her consequence. We see that in the curse. You know, your desire will be to control your husband. So, you know, it all kind of started with her. But, you know, if I had to pick one, I think it'd be Rachel. Because I went in to studying Rachel's story thinking, Oh, she is just this fairy tale story, you know, here's this beautiful woman with an adoring husband. Right? It was going to be a fairy tale. But it was anything but. There's really not a lot of redemption in Rachel's story. It's kind of a sad story. And it's a story of a woman who spends her whole life grappling for control. And what she wants control of is -- she wants to have babies. She wants to have more and more babies, and she can't control that. And, you know, for us, when we look in on Rachel, we're like, Well, I mean, Honey, you got to be the mama of Joseph. Like, I mean, isn't that kind of cool? Like, you got to play this huge role in God's story. And maybe it wasn't the story that you would have chosen for yourself, but, like, you got to do something really big and important. But, you know, when Rachel looked into Joseph's little face, she named him Joseph and she said, "May God add." Like, that's the meaning of his name, "May God add." So it's like nothing was ever going to fill this girl up, you know. She was never going to have enough children. And I just see that in myself, you know, Jennifer. You know, she's pacing before this empty crib thing like, I just need more. God, fill it up, fill it up. And what if I could just be content and surrender my life to God and let him decide, you know, what's my role and what he's calling me uniquely to, and I get to be part of a bigger story and I can surrender all of that to him, like, how long my life will last and how what will happen with my kids. I mean, you know, Rachel, she got to be the mom of the one who said, you know, it was your will for evil, but God meant it for good. So he understood, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Shannon Popkin: Joseph understood that God was managing his life, God was in control. And I want to be the kind of mom who gets that, who, like, grasps that. Not just as a mom, but as a woman. I want to be somebody who recognizes, you know, God's in control and that means I don't have to be.

Jennifer Rothschild: Shannon had such good stuff here, lots to think about, and this is why you need her book We're giving one away, so, K.C., tell them how they can get it.

K.C. Wright: I know. I love giving stuff away.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know. Me too.

K.C. Wright: You get a book, you get a book. So if you want to win a copy of "Control Girl," go to Jennifer's Instagram @jenrothchild to enter, or the show notes. We'll have a link at 413podcast.com/154. And you can also read some of her book right there. Plus, she's got some great free downloads to help with the issues of control.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

K.C. Wright: So stop by the show notes at 413podcast.com/154. And we always notice when you leave reviews.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

K.C. Wright: I cannot thank you enough --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. They're so kind.

K.C. Wright: -- for leaving kind reviews. So, so sweet of you. So thanks for doing that, and keep it up. Your words help others give this podcast a chance. OK, our people, until next week, whatever you face, you know the deal, and however you feel, you can loosen your grip. You can trust God because you can do all things, I mean all things, not some, but all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

K.C. Wright: And --

Jennifer Rothschild: You can.

K.C. Wright: -- you can. Let it go --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, cue Elsa

K.C. Wright: -- let it go.

Jennifer Rothschild: Change the lyrics. I'm gonna loosen my grip of control. Hey, that was a great ending.

K.C. Wright: The cold never bothered me anyway.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, it does.

K.C. Wright: Move over, Elsa. The cold always bothers me. I'm a weather wimp. That's why I'm loving summertime right now.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know, right?

K.C. Wright: Sorry, that jingle was in my head the entire time because --

Jennifer Rothschild: Let it go.

K.C. Wright: -- I have a daughter, and I cannot tell you how many times we've watched Frozen.