4:13 Podcast: Can I Let Go of Striving and Relax in God? With Megan Fate Marshman [Episode 343]

Megan Marshman: One of the ways especially that those -- you know, the dedicated Christians -- which I'm assuming is a lot of the women listening in today, and men, is those really dedicated to the faith. I mean, you wouldn't be listening to a Christian podcast if you weren't. And yet there's this really weird pride that goes, "I can do this." You know, you listen to a sermon on prayer and you're going -- your conscience is pricked, you feel like I'm not as I should be in prayer, because you just said pray without ceasing, and I take some breaks throughout the day, and then your conscience is pricked. And in order to relieve I'm not as I should be, you'd make that decision internally that says I'm going to try a little harder. I can do this. I can get better at it. And it's all this underlying thing, and I think it's one of these great temptations of the enemy that's a little bit shocking in the Christian faith.

Jennifer Rothschild: We often try to do a lot for God, and we often try to do it all without him. Well, wouldn't you just love to let go of spiritual performance and reject the cultural expectation to live under pressure, and instead find freedom to walk with God one gentle step at a time? Me too.

Well, today, author and Bible teacher Megan Marshman explores what it means to set aside our addiction to trying to figure everything out and instead relish a slower, compelling, powerful and relaxed life with God. So buckle up. We are about to dive into Proverbs Chapter 3 with Megan, so here we go.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, friends. I just got to tell you something before I even get started. It took a minute for this episode to get started because KC was chewing.

KC Wright: Oh, my goodness.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, he was. I'm going to just call you out right here in front of everybody.

KC Wright: You threw me under the bus.

Jennifer Rothschild: And here's why. Because I brought in the best chocolate, and he was still eating it. So before I tell you about the chocolate, just in case you're new, I'm talking about KC Wright, my Seeing Eye Guy. I'm Jennifer. Our goal is to help you be and do more than you feel capable of --

KC Wright: Come on now.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- as you're living the "I Can" life. And it really is two friends --

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: --one topic, and that's what we're going to talk about today with Megan --

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: --and zero stress. And our stress is even more reduced because of the chocolate.

KC Wright: Oh, yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: So let me tell you about this chocolate that KC was very much enjoying.

KC Wright: Oh, my goodness.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. First of all, I got this for Christmas. And I got it from Trader Joe's.

KC Wright: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's called a Chocolate Passport. Oh, my gosh, my people, it's in the cutest box, and it's like a box full of passports. And it was, like, these five different bars, and they come from different parts of the country. I get so excited when I think about it.

KC Wright: It's the little things, aren't they?

Jennifer Rothschild: It is. Okay. But which one did I bring us today?

KC Wright: Now, listen here, what I have been inhaling over here --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, inhale -- that is a good word.

KC Wright: Yeah, yeah. And she has so much patience with me, because literally I'm like, "One more bite," and she's just sitting there --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. I'm just waiting.

KC Wright: -- waiting for me to hit "record."

Jennifer Rothschild: Waiting. Waiting.

KC Wright: But let me tell you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, what is it?

KC Wright: This is 73% dark chocolate.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's why it's so good.

KC Wright: It's got subtle fruitiness with a fine hint of vanilla.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh.

KC Wright: Now, you can pair this -- here's the ideal pairing.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, what is it?

KC Wright: They recommend Jasmine tea.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh.

KC Wright: So you're supposed to have Jasmine tea with this. But, see, my love language is Trader Joe's, and the only one close to us is St. Louis.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know. It's too far away.

KC Wright: Did you have to go to St. Louis, or did you --

Jennifer Rothschild: I got it on one of my trips. I forgot where it was. Houston, maybe.

KC Wright: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: But I'm eating it right now.

KC Wright: Trader Joe's. This is actually called Madagascar --

Jennifer Rothschild: Mm-hmm. It's delicious.

KC Wright: -- 73.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's very smooth.

KC Wright: Yeah. We wish -- I wish we --

Jennifer Rothschild: I wish we could share it with you.

KC Wright: I wish we had everybody's addresses and we could all mail them a bar of this.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh, it's so good, my people. Okay. Listen, if you got issues in your life, a little prayer, a little chocolate, it's all good. I'll tell you what else is going to make it good. You're about to hear this woman's voice, Megan. Okay, my people, she is the most chill. She has the most beautiful voice. I'm like, she doesn't even have to teach anything meaningful. She could read me her grocery list and I'd be like, Yes, Jesus, I come. I surrender all.

Okay, so let's introduce Megan.

KC Wright: Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness.

Jennifer Rothschild: Sorry, KC, I didn't mean to throw you off.

KC Wright: Hold on.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

KC Wright: Oh, my goodness. Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: Come on, KC.

KC Wright: Okay. Focus.

Jennifer Rothschild: Focus.

KC Wright: It's the coffee kick and the chocolate kick.

Megan Marshman is an international speaker at churches, conferences, and university chapels, and she is the author of "Relaxed: Walking With The One Who Is Not Worried About A Thing." Hello. So let's do that.

Relax, sit back, and enjoy this sweet conversation between Jennifer and Megan. There's room at the table for you. Pull up a chair.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. Hey, Megan, I've enjoyed getting to know you a little bit before our conversation, so I am really looking forward to getting to know you through our conversation. But I need to start with the hard. Okay? So I read that your husband, Randy, went to heaven at a very young age. And it's interesting to me, when I read about this, that you use Philippians 1:21 -- which, by the way, for those listening, that's the verse that says, "For me to live is Christ and to die is gain." You use that to describe where Randy is now. In fact, you say that this book that we're talking about today is everything you have learned since Randy stepped into the gain. Okay, I just love that phrase. But what I would love is for you to unpack some of that journey for us. Give us a little bit of your backstory.

Megan Marshman: Yeah. Born and raised in the church. And I love the church, not because she's perfect, but because Jesus loves the church. And I think the more I hang out with Jesus and by his Spirit become more like him, I'm noticing that I can love the church more because Jesus loves me more as I open up more of myself to him and be -- again, in that process become more like him.

So I bring up, like, tell me the journey of that. Because with that verse it says "to live is Christ and to die is gain." I didn't understand that first half. I understood the second, the "to die is gain" portion. Because growing up in the church, you hear, you know, if you trust in Jesus, that he died on the cross for your sins and rose to give us new life. And then you get to enter into the gain once you die, which is called heaven, and that sounded well and good. I think I just missed that whole first part for a very long time, which was to live is Christ. That's the point in living in a culture which has a lot of other reasons on why we live, what the purpose of life is, how can you find your purpose, all of this. I've realized more and more that I find my purpose as I find him.

And so, yes, my husband went to heaven three years ago. And if that's shocking to any listener, it still is to me. It was unexpected heart attack in the middle of the night. And I have two little boys still. They're now eight and five. At the time they had just turned two and five. And, man, my entire world was flipped upside down, and I think what happened in that moment is my faith was uncovered. And I feel like I just want to stand here today and go, man, when you enter into trial -- and I love that we're just starting with pain, because it's so relatable, whether you have experienced loss or grief or -- or you just can't get over what you've done. I mean, we have all sorts of losses, expectations of where you thought you'd be by now. We all can relate to that.

But what happens through pain and trial is what our faith is in is uncovered. And a lot of people have, man -- like my journey, my faith and trust has been in Jesus, and I'm so grateful that that was uncovered in this process. I can only imagine so many people, what's been uncovered is like, wait, I thought God was supposed to make my life better. I thought it was supposed to be a little bit easier. I thought that this was supposed to, like, give me such a purpose that I would never get angry or be worried or be scared or -- and I'll just say, if there's people that are listening in and going like, yeah, whether you've experienced that yourself or you've seen it from other people who have walked away from the faith, I would just wonder what has been uncovered in it. Because if our faith isn't a God that just makes life easy and you abandon that faith, my maybe surprising response would be, "Good. And let me tell you about who my faith is in."

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Well, you know, Megan, as you share all that -- which by the way, that is a very hard loss at any age. But with young children, yeah, I just -- I can only imagine the shock and the pain. And grief is not a one and done. So may God continue to grant you grace as you're processing this through all the seasons of life.

And one of the things you shared is how, gosh, when life hits you hard, it reveals. It reveals. And so sometimes I think when a bad thing happens, or a difficult thing, or an unexpected, we think, oh, well, that causes us to need God, when actually I believe it just exposes that we need God all the time anyway. And so one of the things that I'm curious about for you is when you did become a young widow, one of the things that you say is that you did not want to need anything or anyone. Okay? And I can relate to that. Lots of us know that feeling of not wanting to be a burden --

Megan Marshman: Oh, man.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- or just really pressing into our own self-reliance. Okay? So talk to us about this part of your journey.

Megan Marshman: Yeah. You know, it's interesting, I was in a small group of gals just recently, and we asked the question -- and it was strategic -- is it more comfortable for you to give or to receive? Just relationally with people, how is that? And everyone -- you know, we started answering it, and why. And it was kind of funny, there's almost this negative connotation to, like, actually, it's easier for me to receive. You know, the few people that said that, all of us --

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. You're like, Oh, you selfish little person.

Megan Marshman: All of us, you know, kept our mouths closed. Okay, why is that so negative, like, that we have this ability to receive from other people? And it actually comes pretty natural. And, you know, it ended up being this really rich discussion with all these gals who deeply love Jesus. And then at just the right time the conversation shifts to, "Do you see a parallel of that with your relationship with the Lord?" And immediately everyone goes, "Uh-oh."

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Megan Marshman: Right. There was this pride in, "I do so much for God. God, you're welcome." And although we wouldn't want to say it this directly, there's almost a, "and therefore I deserve good things to happen in my life," or, "I'm just constantly serving him, I expect nothing from him." And really what we're uncovering -- to use your words, which I love -- what we're uncovering is that we kind of have the same temptation that Adam and Eve had in the Garden when they desired to cover and hide and do all of that.

But one of the ways especially that those dedicated Christians -- which I'm assuming is a lot of the women listening in today, and men -- is those really dedicated to their faith. I mean, you wouldn't be listening to a Christian podcast if you weren't. And yet there's this really weird pride that goes, "I can do this." You know, you listen to a sermon on prayer and you're going -- and your conscience is pricked, you feel like I'm not as I should be in prayer. Because you just said pray without ceasing, and I take some breaks throughout the day," and then your conscience is pricked.

And in order to relieve I'm not as I should be, you'd make that decision internally that says, I'm going to try a little harder. I can do this. I can get better at it. And it's all this underlying thing. And I think it's one of these great temptations of the enemy that's a little bit shocking in the Christian faith. We think temptation from the enemy looks like just sin. And I'm going to call out a different one -- which really this book highlights -- and it's this: autonomy. And it even is found within the church where we want to do the Christian life without him.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Oh, girl. Ooh.

Megan Marshman: I mean, think about every way that we've wanted to grow ourself. And I hear it all the time in so many women. "I just need to." "As soon as I." And autonomy is all throughout this language that says, like, "I have to grow myself by myself."

And it brings me back to that Galatians 3 where it's like, You foolish Galatians. Was it by your works or by the Spirit that God entered into your life for the first place? Of which all of us would say, Oh, man, of course it was a work of the Lord. I can't save myself. And then he immediately gets to, And how do you think you grow yourself?

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, this is really powerful. You know, I was listening to a Christian song last week -- and I love this particular artist -- and this one song, I was like, ooh, I got to change the lyrics when I sing it at the top of my lungs, because it was this "I don't think you" -- I'm rephrasing because I don't want to expose this, of course. But "I don't think you approve of me until I get better" kind of concept. And so I'm going to work and get better. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no. Jesus does the work in us. And we do have that -- our flesh loves to be autonomous.

And, in fact, you say that one of the greatest counterfeits to living like Jesus is living in Christian autonomy. Like trying to be like him -- I love this phrase, by the way, and I'm going to say it slowly. Trying to be like him without him. So you kind of gave us a picture of what that looks like on the negative side. So what does that look like on the positive side? Like, how do we be like him with him?

Megan Marshman: I love that we're calling out a little bit of the -- here's what it tangibly looks like and then here's what it could -- I want to give a little bit of the even background to where this landed for me.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Megan Marshman: I realized -- okay, so there's a thing called the sanctification gap, which is the difference between where you're at and where -- basically perfection, or where we should be, or Jesus Christ's character, right? There's a gap between where we're at and where we want to be. That's human. And so the world of sanctification is trying to in a sense shrink that gap. And I thought for a very long time that it was my job to do that. Like, God saves, and my job is to sanctify.

Jennifer Rothschild: Me too. Right.

Megan Marshman: I just didn't catch that God was sovereign in that process as well, and moving strategically in my life to do it. And so what I found as I went back to school and I'm getting my doctorate in spiritual formation, we understood that there's three great temptations when you realize you're not as you should be. Number one is despair. And I think despair doesn't always just look like depression in the face. I think it also looks like this. And I think it's more rampant than we realize. It's the woman who goes, I've tried to do the quiet time, it's just not working for me. I feel like I can't get it. Either I'm not smart enough, but -- so I'll just keep showing up on Sundays or to my Bible studies where someone does, and hopefully I can be inspired to keep trying, because, honestly, I just want to settle for a valley of dry bones faith and just kind of like coast through and try every once in a while, and hopefully someone motivates me. Despair.

Number two is to act immorally. We see this in a lot of the next generation who's, quote, leaving the church. The truth is they're not leaving the church -- they're not leaving in light of truth, they're leaving trying to find truth. Because basically the immoral temptation is realizing, wait, wait, wait, I show up at church and you're just going to tell me how I'm not good enough all the time? I'm going to go find a different standard where I feel encouraged. And that's why we see them going to all these different communities to find encouragement, because going and stepping foot in church and going, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait. You're going to remind me of this sanctification gap over and over again? That sounds exhausting. I'm out to find a new standard.

And then the third one -- and this one was the most surprising of all -- is the moral temptation. And that's what we've already been discussing. It's that, Okay, I just got to get better. And it sounds well and good, but here's the problem with all three of those temptations, is they're without God.

And so here's the tangible, which is the question you just asked me. What do you do when you realize you're not as you should be? What's the best response? And here's where the Gospel comes in so beautifully for all of us, and I hope we can receive it. The best response to the fact that we're not as we should be is not even our response to it. It's God's response to it. And I feel like he's just looking at all of us going, I love you and I'm taking you on a journey. And the minute you gave your life to me, my spirit's within me and I'm actually leading that dance.

So the tangible what this looks like to respond to his pursuit, rather than trying harder and running faster to do more and feeling the weight of your own spiritual growth completely and solely on your shoulders, is this: to open up absolutely everything in honest prayer to the one who's leading the dance. It means you can look at him and say, God, I want to have quiet times that, quote, work. God, I want to pray more. Would you help me?

And it's so funny how we've removed him culturally -- even in Christianity -- out of the equation of our own spiritual growth. And I feel like God in this moment, in this time, in this over-emphasis on spiritual formation in our culture, is God's response going, I actually am already moving toward you. You can relax.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, I'm already forming. I'm already forming you and conforming you to the image. It's grace, Megan. And it is a little bit hard to receive without humility, without -- yeah, just a willingness to admit that it's not about us.

One of the things you do in your book is you walk through Proverbs 3:5-6. Okay. So speaking of church tradition and stuff. You know, sometimes we just look at Proverbs 3:5-6 -- it's, like, reduced to a Hobby Lobby verse, right? It's on a plaque or it's on a coffee mug. And so obviously we've already gathered that there's some depth there that you're going to expose. So tell us why, when you're talking about this life that is not spiritually autonomous, it's not about spiritual performance, why'd you pick basically a to-do list in Proverbs 3:5-6?

Megan Marshman: I love that question, Jennifer. I think because I've realized that it's less a to-do list; it's more of an invitation. And so I'll just do the first part that everyone has memorized. And the minute I start saying it, people, I'm sure, in their mind are already moving on to the next part. But it's this: Trust in the Lord with all your heart. And I would say this. The reason we must actually consider and search our heart is because, as Proverbs 4 reminds us, everything we do comes from the heart. And so I wonder if there's listeners in there that -- in there? -- in the podcast world somewhere listening in who -- I just want to invite you to actually allow you to look at the anger that's been spurting out of your life that really has something much deeper that the Spirit might be rising to the surface. Because what you might be surprised at when you look with him is he's angry about it too. Trusting in the Lord with all your heart is not the moment you declare, "God, I trust you" and you ignore what you actually feel and have experienced. It's finally being honest with him.

My professor Dr. John Coe would say, "Prayer is not a place to be good; it's a place to be honest." I feel like so many of us trust the Lord Jesus for eternal salvation, but the relational drama or the wayward kid or the difficulty at work or the insecurity within ourselves, we feel like, okay, we trust Jesus for salvation, but that stuff I got to figure out on my own. No wonder we're so anxious. So I think the invitation is a wooing back to relationship instead of a list of things we must do in order to earn it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Every command in Scripture that we see, every "to-do" list is an invitation for Christ to do it through us and in us. So I appreciate the way you framed that.

And you mention the word anxiety, which is prevalent everywhere, so I want us to talk about anxiety. Because you say that our anxieties are doorways, not walls, and they are taking us to greater intimacy with God or the Sovereign One. So talk to us about why they are doorways, because sometimes we feel like they are big fat failures.

Megan Marshman: Absolutely. Yeah, I'd say that it's -- I'm going to jump into a different word just to parallel it so it makes sense. So I experience insecurity. I walk into an environment and I feel insecure. What I've come to realize is that God gifted us with an ability to be insecure. It's almost as if his spirit is whispering, "You're trying to be secure in an area other than me, and I'm kind enough to let you know it." Insecurity. And I'd say anxiety similarly can be useful to allow us to become more aware of what's in our heart, because anxiety is the manifestation of what's actually in there, this desire to know and this desire to be in control. Us experiencing anxiety does not mean always that we don't trust that he's sovereign. I just wonder if in his sovereignty he's making us more aware of the places we can believe it even more.

And so I would wonder, with everyone listening in, where do you feel most anxious? What is that category that you can open up? How can you open -- this is a new word for everyone, I hope. Not try, but open the anxiety. Now, mind you, it's easier to say than to do in the moment that you're actually experiencing the anxiety.

Jennifer Rothschild: Sure, sure.

Megan Marshman: But there's also -- and I have to give this one as just a way of two cents for people to move forward if that is a deep, deep, deep struggle within them. I've even been studying a little bit of the psychology behind it. And what I've come to find is that same portion of your brain that literally initiates anxiety is the same exact portion of your brain you use when you're being grateful. So in other words, you cannot be grateful and anxious at the exact same time. So I feel like preventatively if that is something of you, take out a pen and write down 30 things you're grateful for and see what happens in your brain.

What God is doing is he's allowing us to see what's going on. And so I'd just say this. Rather than considering anxiety a sin, consider it a signal of a very open opportunity, a doorway into intimacy with the one who understands everything, even in the midst of the fact that we can't. Again, if anxiety is something that is so prevalent in your life, I just want to woo you back to trust in the Lord with all your heart to all your anxieties. And what that looks like is being honest about them. God, this is too much. It is too much for me.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. This is so good, Megan. This is so good. And I hope some words that are just prominent in everything you've said -- you've talked about being wooed. That's what the Holy Spirit is even doing right now as someone is listening and they're really resonating, almost maybe even with some discomfort. That's okay. That's the invitation. And I love how you created the dichotomy between a sin and a signal, because, yes, all these are supposed to be signals that draw us.

Okay. And so one thing I want to clarify. So you mention the word "gratefulness" and making a list of your gratefulness as a preventative measure. Which is a yes, 100%. And so when someone is feeling, like you said, the insecurity -- that's a signal for you -- the anxiety, yes, it can be a signal. And then what is also a very wise way -- do you just start right there coming up with a thing you're grateful for at that moment to help you get over the speed bump?

Megan Marshman: Honestly, I think -- so our willpower is not all that powerful, right? I mean, you sit in church and you hear a really great word, and then you decide right then and there, I'm going to wake up 30 minutes earlier and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay. That lasts about five minutes. Maybe the next day. Definitely not to Wednesday. That willpower you have, that I think when we're talking about -- like you just said, like anxiety or experiencing anxiety, what is within our power and what's not? Within our power to overcome and completely jump -- and that's why I said preventative with regards to the gratitude list. Man, that is preventative. In the moment in that willpower, I don't think it's all that powerful autonomously, and that's why I don't want us to rely on the flesh. Rather, if you do have that willpower -- which was, again, a God-given gift -- I would say allow that willpower to take you to God instead of yourself.

So tangibly, of course, my mind jumps over to the most highlighted verse on all Kindle E-Readers. Fact. You don't have to be anxious, but he also knows that you will be. Don't be anxious about anything, but in everything. And here's where he takes it. This is where this is coming from. With prayer and supplication, make your requests known to God. And then I love the next part. And he also says, "with Thanksgiving." Even if all you can say is, Thank you that I'm not alone, with Thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And then here's the beautiful thing about God. And the peace of God will guard your heart and your mind in Christ Jesus. And I imagine the peace looking like one of those London soldiers with the big fluffy hats on top, the black ones, standing guard at your heart and your mind and allowing it to almost be like an umpire saying either you're in or you're out when it comes to some of those emotions. But I would just take Paul's words and say let your little willpower, that's not all that powerful, but it's powerful enough to take you through the doorway of intimacy to the Lord. Go to God. But what you do there is not perform at him; it's ask him for help. Because sanctification rehearses salvation. The same way that we grow is the same way that we're saved.

And I think a better posture for us to end a sermon on Sunday morning and also to end an anxiety attack is the same -- the best posture we can bring to it is the same exact way we came to be saved, which was this: Oh, Lord, how I need you. I want to land messages that I have the privilege of sharing in women's Bible studies or any book that I have, landing people in a place that go, "Oh, Lord, I need you." And I just imagine our Heavenly Father, at the end of this podcast, looking at you and going, I know and I love you, and I'm in you and I'm with you, and everything I'm going to form you into, which is Christ's likeness. That's what the Spirit's doing, is already in you. You don't have to run, you just have to open to it. And by his Spirit, he will guard your heart and your mind as we use that little willpower to go to him instead of ourselves.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, this is so good. My people, my people, my people, this is why you need Megan's book. Because you really are describing this true spiritual rest. Well, that's why your title is so perfect being "Relaxed." And so the goal is here for all of us to be able to receive what we already have basically and just rest in God's acceptance and power within us.

Okay. So this will be our last question, because a curiosity for me is this. Jesus had plenty of reasons not to, like, chill out and relax. Okay? And so in the hardest instances of his life, like, take us through what he did and what we can learn for how Jesus lived here on earth in his most stressful, difficult, potentially let-me-figure-this-out-and-work-it-out moments.

Megan Marshman: Yeah. I think it's important to see that to be relaxed, to look more like Jesus, this whole role of spiritual formation, the process by which we become more like Jesus, does not mean that we don't get angry. It doesn't mean that we don't feel like we're carrying the weight of the world on our shoulders. Jesus literally did carry the weight of the world on his shoulders.

In fact, my pastor, Pastor Brent Eldridge, looked at me after I turned in this book and he said, "Do you feel more relaxed now that you've turned it in?" And I chuckled and said, "You know, honestly, no. I just know what to do when I'm not." And I'd say that because Jesus was perfect -- one of my favorite verses is in Luke when it just says he often got away to lonely places and prayed. I think Jesus preventatively -- even though he's sinless and didn't have to worry about sin, although he went through and understands the temptation, I think he spent time first thing with his Heavenly Father.

And honestly, if I could give any two cents -- we could talk about a whole lot of things, Jennifer. But just recently I was sharing at my own home church and I had this moment where I thought, like, you know, there's one superpower in grief. It's that you stop caring about things that don't matter and you really start caring a lot about what people do. And I just want to -- and I'll use the word again -- woo every listener back to their Heavenly Father who loves them, knowing all of them, and I'd invite them, even at the end of this podcast, to set aside a moment and a time and take the time it literally takes to be and spend time with the One who loves you the most.

I think that's why this book got its title, because one of the guys I look up to, Dallas Willard, described Jesus -- was asked to describe him in one word, and he responded, "Relaxed." And again, it wasn't that he didn't get angry, it wasn't that he wasn't sad, he just knew what to do with those things. And I think he's wooing us through these Proverbs verses that we don't have to do any of them alone.

Jennifer Rothschild: Listen to the peace in her voice. She really does live relaxed, doesn't she? And it's not because, of course, she's from California, but because Jesus is her life. Like, for Megan, to live is Christ.

KC Wright: And we want to live this way too. This doesn't mean at times we won't feel, you know, stress or even anger, but like Jesus, who's the author and the finisher of our faith, let's be like him and get away to lonely places. We need to spend time with God. So do as she suggests, when this podcast ends, set aside a moment and just be with the Father. And then buy her book.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, and then buy her book.

You know, speaking of books, I just released a Bible study on Heaven We've been talking about it a lot around here. And if you've done that Bible study already, or maybe you're in the middle of doing it, you also need to check out some of Megan's messages on Heaven. So we're going to have links on the Show Notes.

KC Wright: You can listen in on other podcasts with Megan and churches where she has taught on Heaven.

Also on the Show Notes, we can hook you up with the transcript of this entire conversation. Plus, we are given away one of Megan's books right now. Go to the Show Notes at 413podcast.com/343, or you can also go to Jennifer's Insta @jennrothschild to enter to win. And I hope you do.

All right, our people. We sure do love you. We appreciate you more than you'll ever know. Thank you for the kind reviews. Thank you for sharing this podcast. Thank you for praying for us. We're praying for you. It's awesome to be family with you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

KC Wright: So until next week, relax. Relax in God's presence. You can, because you can do all things through Christ who gives you supernatural strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

Jennifer and KC: And you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: What else is there to say?

KC Wright: I know. We've got one big chunk of chocolate left.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

KC Wright: And love prefers the other before itself, so you can have that.

Jennifer Rothschild: So you're going to give it to me?

KC Wright: Yes. Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, I'll take it. Thank you.