4:13 Podcast: Can I Let Go and Live Free? With Rebekah Lyons [Episode 184]

Rebekah Lyons: Let's just say this. I'm a recovering firstborn, Type A control freak. And really my mode of operation and my default has always been, you know, pull yourself up by your bootstraps, make it happen, and just be a high-capacity overcomer. Well, until I couldn't.

Jennifer Rothschild: Rebekah Lyons spent years battling fear, anxiety, and panic until she found freedom in surrendering her yes to God. From moving to New York City with little kids, to adopting a precious little child with Down's syndrome, Rebekah learned that saying yes to God is the very best way to live free. So today she's going to help you move from fear to freedom. She's going to share her own rescue journey and she will encourage you to be your bravest self. So get comfy. Here we go.

K.C. Wright: Here we go. Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, my friend, because you truly can do all things through Christ who gives you strength, who strengthens you supernaturally. Now, your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: It is supernatural strength. And you might need that strength today, so you are in the right place, my friend. I'm Jennifer and I'm here to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you live the "I Can" life. And that was K.C. Wright, my seeing eye guy. It's just two friends here in the closet. We're talking about one topic, and there is zero stress.

K.C. Wright: Zero.

Jennifer Rothschild: So you are in the right place. Because here we are, it's finally starting to get spring. I don't know if it's spring where you are, but it's starting to get a little less chilly, we're having warmer days, spring is on the way, and that means we're leaving all the stuff of winter behind.

K.C. Wright: Including our fat.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, we are. Are you, K.C.?

K.C. Wright: We're getting fit.

Jennifer Rothschild: We're getting fit.

K.C. Wright: Well, you know, you go through those Thanksgiving dinners, your Christmas dinners --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

K.C. Wright: -- your New Year's Eve dinners, your Valentine's dinners. Can we talk about all the dinners?

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, it's just all the chocolate and goodies from Valentine's. Yeah, that does not help anybody.

K.C. Wright: Leviticus 3:16 says, "All the fat belongs to the Lord," and I belong to the Lord.

Jennifer Rothschild: I am a living sacrifice.

K.C. Wright: So I am wanting to see my abs, and I want my abs to see the ocean for the very first time this summer. I do. And I want absolutely all the tacos, so I have to say no to tacos in Mexican and say yes to abs.

Jennifer Rothschild: You are surrendering your yes.

K.C. Wright: Remember when your friend Lisa Welchel -- years ago at a Fresh Grounded Faith, she stood on stage and she said, "Bread isn't bad because Jesus said, 'I'm the bread of life.'"

Jennifer Rothschild: That's right. Carbs can't be all bad if Jesus is the bread of life.

K.C. Wright: He didn't say, "I'm the celery stick of life or the kale leaf of life," he said, "I'm the bread."

Jennifer Rothschild: That's good.

K.C. Wright: And you know if the Lord has anything to do with that, that bread is buttered. Hallelujah?

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah. That bread is like Texas Roadhouse yeast rolls.

K.C. Wright: Maybe heaven is like a Paula Deen's heaven where it's not streets of gold, it's streets of butter.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, you got to rein it in, I can tell. But I've just got to say, K.C., you gave us something that probably no one listening has ever gotten before.

K.C. Wright: What?

Jennifer Rothschild: A Scripture from Leviticus that blesses them totally. So now, if you've got a little extra weight from all the winter holidays --

K.C. Wright: There you go.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- my friend, now, you know, the fat belongs to the Lord. It's Leviticus what?

K.C. Wright: 3:16.

Jennifer Rothschild: See. There you go. I just love that. Okay. Speaking of love, you are going to love our conversation today. She's been with us before, Rebekah Lyons, but she is with us again. And so I think we need to just pull up our chairs and listen in on this conversation.

K.C. Wright: Rebekah Lyons is a speaker, host of the Rhythms for Life Podcast, best-selling author of "Rhythms of Renewal," "You Are Free," and "Freefall to Fly." Alongside her husband, Gabe, Rebekah finds joy in raising four children, two of whom have Down syndrome. She's been featured on The Today Show, Good Morning America, CNN, Fox News, and Publishers Weekly, and she's back here again as an official. 4'13er. So let's hear from Rebekah and Jennifer. Y'all, this is going to be so good.

Jennifer Rothschild: So good.

K.C. Wright: Pull up a chair and turn it up.

Jennifer Rothschild: Better than Paula Deen's butter.

K.C. Wright: Well, I wouldn't go that far.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Rebekah, your latest book is called "A Surrendered Yes." So let's start with that, Sister. What is a surrendered yes?

Rebekah Lyons: Oh, my goodness. It's definitely leaning into what is. Starting by describing what surrender is, just embracing what is. And then also leaning into the invitation of that, whether it's a joyful season, a difficult season, an extended season. Maybe it is a lonely season. And just asking God to say -- like, "What are the nudges that you're prompting me with in this moment?" And I think often God, he does prompt us in places where he wants to grow us. And it's up to us to kind of pay attention to that and ask for more clarity on those things, but then also be willing to let some things go, maybe, that have led us to maybe a pause or a stopping point. And so I think surrendered yes has been saying yes to risk. It's also saying no to something that I've held on to, that God is kind of making clear it's time to lay down. But ultimately surrender is just us answering that question that God constantly has for us, which is, "Do you trust me?" Do you trust me in this area of release or do you trust me in this area of risk and stepping out, and what does that daily cadence look like to follow him?

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, what I did not hear you say in that answer was it involves fixing something, it involves pushing through until you get your way. That's what I did not hear. And so I'd be curious, do you think surrender is easy for most people? Or let me phrase it this way. What makes surrender hard?

Rebekah Lyons: Yeah. I think one of the hardest things really in life is letting go. Because maybe there was a season where that was very life giving and very fruitful, and then now maybe that's not the case. Maybe it's time to move forward into new ventures, new areas of trust, new dependence on God. I do know that God wants us to be dependent on him, he wants us to wait on him, he wants us to trust him, and that's a lot easier when you're going rogue, when you're in some form of a freefall or some form of a risk taking, stepping out. And really that is always for our good, and it's always for our growth, and sometimes we'd rather escape and numb out and just kind of have -- you know, go hide. But I'm just asking God to prompt me in the areas where I get so comfortable that I start to grow complacent. Because that isn't what I want. I do want a life of faithfulness, but I do think it comes from that long obedience in the same direction.

Jennifer Rothschild: Same direction, yeah. Yeah, I agree with you. And surrender is an activity. Sometimes the word sounds so sleepy we can think it's passive, but it's not. And I think in your life I have noticed -- in fact, we've talked about it on our podcast before. You know, you've been real honest about anxiety and fear and panic attacks and all that stuff, and so -- I know this is a constant issue for a lot of people, and so I'm curious when it comes to a surrendered yes, how did you get to the place of saying yes to God in those areas?

Rebekah Lyons: Well, let's just say this. I'm a recovering firstborn, Type A control freak. And really my mode of operation and my default has always been, you know, pull yourself up by your bootstraps, make it happen, and just be a high-capacity overcomer. Well, until I couldn't. And, you know, I think surrender chooses us sometimes when we're not willing to choose it, and it can come through forms of burnout, fatigue, exhaustion, discouragement, you know, waiting. Just trial, honestly.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Rebekah Lyons: And we've all witnessed that this year and a half, this last -- there's been unprecedented -- which we hate saying. But our lives have been interrupted and life does not look as we thought it would. And it really never does. But this is the first time on a global scale everyone is in the same exact boat. And there's some camaraderie in that, there's some comfort in knowing that we're not alone, but it doesn't diminish the magnitude of it is no longer what it was. And sometimes surrender is just accepting that. It's just owning and accepting that what used to work doesn't work now, whether that's in my marriage or my parenting or my friendships or my career. And, man, that is not an easy thing to say out loud.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Rebekah Lyons: It's not an easy thing to take full ownership of as far as, like, just it is what it is, but not from a place of despair. This is not like it is what it is and there's nothing I can do about it. Because you're right, that does sound passive. What I'm thinking it is more for me is going, "Okay, God, that must mean that you're on the move in new uncharted ways that I have yet to discover and I'm excited to see. Because you are always faithful. You complete everything you begin. Whatever finished work is still undone in my marriage or in my parenting or in my friendships or in my vocation, you're not confused about that, even if I am."

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Rebekah Lyons: And so there's a real comfort, honestly, in release, because it's like, "Wow, God. Okay, what does this mean? What are you going to do?" The biggest refrain I heard, honestly, about four weeks into quarantine -- and I write one of my devotionals -- is about this particular moment where we went on a walk, I was having it out with God, and I just said what -- you know, at first this was really fun for, like, three weeks of novelty, like, I was going to make bread and we were going to be gardeners. And we were home all the time and we were going to do hikes and -- you know, it's always fun because there's the adrenaline of, like, something extreme, and then all of a sudden you're like, "Wait a minute, this has no end date currently." And it just hit me, like, I was going to be in 30 different cities. I got through seven, and that's fine. I was sad but also trusting, like, these things will happen someday. But also I just remember finally saying, "God, what is it" -- I had an ugly cry, because I was past the excitement of the change, and I just said, "What is it that you want me to know? What is it that you want me to learn through this?" And as clear as a bell, by the end of that walk I just in my spirit heard, "Hey, Rebekah, you don't have to make things happen." And it was like you let the air out of the balloon. I, like, exhaled for so long and teared up because I wasn't even conscious that I was operating as if I have to make everything happen, until it was all yanked out from under me, and for the rest of us, and you're left in a posture of receiving. There was no more extending or giving or pouring out or giving from an empty place or an empty well. And really that's what burnout is, it's just giving from an empty well, and that's why we burn out. And I realized, wow, I had been doing so much output for a long time, and the filling was missing. Like, just my soul, like, needing that filling. And when God just kind of like released me of the responsibility that I had so much, like, carried around like a badge of honor and nobility, and just said, "Oh, I get to be like a helpless child in your arms that's just receiving," it broke me.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Yeah.

Rebekah Lyons: And it was so good. It was so good. And so that's why, like, even the surrendered yes is a yes to rest, a yes to stop, a yes to pause, a yes to receive.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. It's even in some ways -- not that we got to say no because of the pandemic, but in some ways saying yes is saying no. So let's say we are in a place where we have some options. How can saying no be part of saying a surrendered yes? How do those go together?

Rebekah Lyons: Yeah. Because obviously we know when we say no to something, anything, maybe something we should have said no to for a while now, we open up room and space, mental capacity, just potential for something new to emerge. And I'm a fan of, like, decluttering my kitchen or my closet or my pantry, but I'm not always good at decluttering my soul. And the truth is, when we get rid of the things that were there too long, that aren't being used, that are actually not bearing fruit, they're actually weighing us down. We're thwarting new life to emerge. And that's what happened last year. I didn't have to make the old things happen any longer, I got space to dream a little and be still and receive. And out of that input, instead of just chronic output, I started to find joy. And I was humming. Gabe was, like, joking by May or June I was, like, humming a lot without being aware of humming. "You're always, like, humming in the kitchen." And I'm like, "I am?" And my mom always said, like, when I was young, that I would sing everything I was doing. (Singing) "I'm going to the bathroom," or whatever. And I was like, you know, I feel like while the world is still completely full of unknowns and there's a lot of pain out there, I do feel a real trust that God is going to handle this and that I cannot feel all of that weight on my own. It was good.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know, it reminds me -- just the spirit of what you're saying reminds me of Psalm 23, almost this invitation to be the sheep --

Rebekah Lyons: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- to be needy, to be told to lie down, to be told to follow, to be told, "I've got a seat for you." You know, it's a response rather than being in charge of the whole world. I love that picture. And I love that -- just quite honestly, what I'm hearing here too is -- and this should be an encouragement to all of us -- the author of "Rhythms of Renewal" found herself still in a place where she was trying to work on the rhythms, you know, trying to deal with that, feeling just what that's like. And I only point that out, Rebekah, because to me that shows just grace in motion, you know? You don't write a book called "Rhythms of Renewal" and then you get it perfect every single day. You still have seasons where you're like, "Lord, my output's so great, I got to rest again," or whatever it is. We all need to be reminded of that.

Rebekah Lyons: Yeah. And I think what happens is we -- that rhythm's message is still -- I'm practicing it more than ever, because I practiced it then, and then quarantined again, and I had all this free time to practice it again more diligently. But it is true, it's like do we -- whatever we endeavor, are we doing it in our might and our power or are we doing it by His Spirit? And that's a difference. You can be doing the same exact thing and the motivations are opposite. And to me, it was really more of a checking my heart. Are my motivations that I'm doing this so that I can be fruitful in these other areas or am I doing this just because I love time with you? I love to just sit on the porch and hear the rain and listen to the birds wake up. Like, that's me now. I enjoy walking because it's so much enjoyment, not because I need to get it in to release some serotonin in my brain.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Rebekah Lyons: I think it comes back to, like, do we delight in God? Can we still do that as His children? Because Jesus cares so much. Like, "Let the children come to me." Like, "Come like the faith of a child who can receive my delight in them and respond with their delight in me." And it just reminds me, like, Jesus is the prize. My walk with God is the goal. The daily abiding, grafting into the vine is it. Everything else is overflow. Everything else is overflow. And I've had that in ministry and then I've had where everything else was pulling from the bottom of the well. And so in the overflow there is an ease, there is a grace, there is a release. There's a posture of open-handedness, like, "You give and you take away. Maybe this is the first of my last book," whatever. Like, I just -- not that I want to quit early or anything like that, but just like, "God, like, what do you have for me? My answer is yes."

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Well, your life, your life has become a surrendered yes. And I love that you're explaining, just in some very accessible ways, what the process is like, because there's also some things in our lives that are very hard to say yes to. Okay? Now, I'm not saying this was hard for you. I'm curious if it was. But you said something that a lot of women would think is hard to say yes to. You adopted your precious daughter -- I believe a daughter -- from China.

Rebekah Lyons: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Was that hard? And how did you feel confident that that was a yes? You know, how did you know?

Rebekah Lyons: Well, I gave God an ultimatum and he met that ultimatum. I'm not sure that's the right answer, but that's what happened. Adoption had kind of been a back burner for us. We had three C sections, we were done with children biologically, and we just always left that door open. But it was more like a three-minute conversation every three years, kind of like could we, should we, maybe, no, I think we're good. And so we get back to Nashville, our kids are growing older, our church is talking a lot about foster care and adoption. And I just remember one day just saying, "God, if this is something you want to happen, I need you to put it right in front of my face, and I will name her Joy." And that was it. It was kind of like, "I'm not going to pursue this. I know there are a lot of families waiting in line to adopt. I want those families to -- that have been yearning for this for years. Like, I'm not going to take those places in line, I just -- if it just becomes clear that there's a real need and that we're the fit, I just -- whatever you need to do, like, just make it really obvious."

And so I move on. Two years later we're having our 20th anniversary and my friend texts me a photo of a little girl with Down's syndrome from a foster home in Beijing and said, "Her file is going to the States tomorrow." And I'm like -- I hadn't told her we were looking or that I had this little ultimatum conversation with God. I hadn't really thought about it, honestly, for two years since I said that to God. I was like, "I'm moving on with life and this is an open invitation to interrupt us. But as we know it, we're moving forward."

And the craziest thing is I wanted to name her Joy because I'd walked out of anxiety and depression, panic disorder ten years prior in New York City, and I remember so many times in that season saying, "Restore to me the joy of my salvation." And I knew in Psalm 126 that those who sow in tears bearing a seed will reap a harvest of songs of joy carrying those sheaves. So I knew that, like, I was sowing tears in -- like, sowing seeds in tears in that season, and I wanted to sow -- like, reap a harvest of joy in years to come. It was just like this is science, this is how God works, this is how he functions.

So I get this text, this girl. I tell my friend, "She's adorable." Why are you doing this to me is what I'm really thinking. And then I said, "What's her name?" And she said, "Chara, C-h-a-r-a." And I said, "Oh, you mean the Greek word for joy?" She said, "Yes." And, I mean, I'm telling you what, like, you just be careful the parameters you give the Lord. Because not only was her name Chara, but she had arrived at my friend's foster home six months prior, in the middle of the night, with a baby who had -- another child who had serious heart defects and needed emergency surgery. Joy did not. She just kind of tagged along in the middle of the night on an eight-hour train ride. And when she arrived, my friend thought she looked very forlorn and sad, but just something about her said, "I'm going to rename her." And she named her Chara that night because she saw something in there. And within days, Joy is back to who she is. Like, she is very much the embodiment of her name. But the insight that God gave my friend to rename her -- so God's not only saying, "You don't even need to name her, I will have her renamed before you even meet her."

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Rebekah Lyons: It's just cool. And so, yes, I was terrified. I was like, "," like, "you really answered." And I felt so ill equipped and I had to re-surrender, because I was almost like -- kind of like throwing it out there to God, but not like a serious, like, "He's really going to show up in this way," you know. And when he did, it was left back to me, because then my husband was like, "I think we're supposed to do this." And he had always been like -- I'm like, "You were supposed to be my out." You know, I'm thinking, like, all these parameters, and the doors just kept flying open. And then, like, her file, we were the first --it was like we were supposed to be the family. I can't even tell you. Like, within a -- meeting her, seeing her face, we had a week and her file was in our lap.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Rebekah Lyons: And I deliberated, honestly. And that was really my surrender season. I deliberated for two more weeks, so it was three weeks total, and I felt every wave of fear you could possibly imagine. Like, "What are we thinking? I'm in my mid-40s, I'm bringing home a girl with Down's syndrome, who's never had a family. She was left at a police station at four months old, grew up in an orphanage, 18 cribs in a room, bottle fed and diapers at five and a half. I don't know what this is going to look like." And God just kept just making it clear, and finally I was just like, "The more scared I am, the more I know we have to do this." And I think, you know, that was like kind of a big gesture. That was a grand gesture of a surrendered yes, that was a -- because it really was where I was like -- I said, "Babe, I don't think I can do it." I just...

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Rebekah Lyons: And he prayed. Like, one night he prayed that I would know the next day. Because I was literally like a yo-yo. "We can't do this. We have to do this. We can't do this. We have to do this." And one day I was just like, "Babe, I think it's a no." And then he's just smiling because he has already made it clear his is a yes. And I start going -- I mean -- I said, "But it's so scary." I feel like I felt the day I got Cade's diagnosis 17 years prior. And I had no idea as a 26-year-old, like, what that journey would be.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Rebekah Lyons: And then I said, "It feels like I'm getting that same diagnosis again and I have no idea what this means." I said -- but then I kept talking. I, like, am such a verbal processor. My poor husband. I said, "But it's not as scary because we've done this before." And it's like God gave us Cade 17 years ago because he knew there'd be a Joy and we'd say yes. And at that point I was like, "Okay, it's done," you know. And I think that's kind of the point of our lives, is like -- Psalm 139 says all our days were written and planned before one of them began. They're not forced upon us. God's not coercive, doesn't manipulate. He invites. And one thing I've learned -- and while life looks wildly different than I thought, it never looked different than what God had. And he had already prepared before that in advance. Gave me the husband I was supposed to have, and the younger siblings that we were supposed to have, and the community were supposed to have. And in every surrendered journey, it's not even about, like, the big yes, it's about the daily practice of trust and strength on the other side of saying yes. And that's what's changed me. It's not that we adopted a girl, it's that I've raised a son for 20 years with Down's syndrome and now he's got a little sister and they're buddies. And it's not going to end, like, in two years, right? Like, this is the indefinite future forever and always, maybe never empty nesters at all. And that's not what I would have, quote/unquote, imagined, but what it has produced in us is a daily trust and a daily surrender, and just a real dependence, honestly, that while that makes me sometimes feel deeply inadequate, I also know that his strength is made perfect in all of it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Rebekah, that's beautiful. Thank you. Thank you for sharing it, letting us into that place. And what you just showed is it's really a daily yes. So what would you say to the woman who's listening to you and thinking, "Oh, man, I just feel this tug," or, like, "God's calling me to say a yes and I'm terrified"? How would you encourage her?

Rebekah Lyons: Yeah, I think for all of us, no matter your circumstances, there's probably something in your world right now that you are asking God, "Are you going to lift this?" And sometimes that answer is not yet. And it sometimes could feel cruel or it could feel like God is silent or that he's not attentive. But I have learned that it's actually the opposite, that he is right there holding us, carrying us, sustaining us, being near us if we have the eyes to see it. And as a result, if we do lean into that, even in the middle of trial or struggle, we know that we're not alone, we know this is not the end of our story. And we also know that whatever trial we've endured still directly relates to the measure of hope we offer the world. Like, you get to offer someone else a dose of encouragement when you are walking with them. And so just trust that God sees you and lay those burdens down at his feet. Like, not even just casually, but casting them.

I went fly fishing this summer for the first time, and I learned how to really cast, and it is a very deliberate, intentional, precise act. It's not optional. And so I've gotten more, quote/unquote, aggressive and intentional at casting my cares upon God, because I know he cares for me and I know he walks with me, and he will give you that daily strength to say yes, to keep showing up and saying yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: My friend, trust that God does see you. So lay those burdens down, because he's going to give you the daily strength you need to say yes. Those were Rebekah's words, and I believe those are God's words right to you.

K.C. Wright: There is power in surrender. And there's freedom there, too. So check out her book, "A Surrendered Yes." It's 52 devotionals to get you on this path of freedom. And we'll have a link to it on the show notes at 413podcast.com/184. And there will also be a transcript to the conversation right there just for you as well.

Jennifer Rothschild: And you know, this was some good stuff today. A lot to unpack, a lot to process. So spend some time today with the Lord, just so that you can hear what he is saying to you about your own yes. All right. Until next week, our friends, do your thing, love your people, and remember that you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

K.C. Wright: I can.

Jennifer and K.C.: And you can.

K.C. Wright: So true story. Paula Deen calls my radio show years ago. Yes, years ago. She was calling to give us some recipes for Thanksgiving. She's calling from the back of her limo. True story.

Jennifer Rothschild: I do that all the time.

K.C. Wright: And it was so funny. The tape was rolling. And here's the best part of the interview. She goes, "Sugar, I got to let you go, I just got pulled over by a policeman."

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh.

K.C. Wright: That was the part we ended up airing, because her conversation trying to get herself out of a ticket was the best thing ever.

Jennifer Rothschild: You go, Paula.

K.C. Wright: How can you give Paula Deen a ticket? She's sweeter than sweet tea, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Aww. that's great.