4:13 Podcast: Can I Find Hope in the Book of Ecclesiastes? With Hannah Anderson [Episode 314]

Hannah Anderson: The topic of Ecclesiastes is essentially can we find meaning and purpose under the sun? Can we make sense of life? And so the way it's designed is to kind of get you turned around and upside down, because you're supposed to feel, through reading it, that kind of disorientation until it eventually resolves. And there are resolutions within it that point us back to the God who is beyond the sun, that we may not be able to find lasting meaning in things like money or work or relationships, but that our trust can be put in God, and that's what helps us as we're moving through life, even if it feels like we're going in circles.

Jennifer Rothschild: All things ever seem to do is change. And just as soon as you get your footing, the ground shifts again. So how can you keep your balance in such a disorienting world? Well, I know the answer. Through the wisdom of the Book of Ecclesiastes. Yeah. That's what we're going to talk about.

Today's guest, Hannah Anderson, is going to take us on a tour of the ancient Book of Ecclesiastes, and it's going to help us find a solid foundation when the seasons change. We are going to discover how Ecclesiastes is far more than self-help or good advice, but rather through the goodness and grace in its pages, we are going to find hope in the One who guides us through every single season. So let's do it.

K.C. Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you and I up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, hey, our friends. Jennifer here to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you're living that "I Can" life of Philippians 4:13. We say it all the time because it is true, it is two friends talking about one topic, and there is zero stress --

K.C. Wright: Zero stress.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- here in the podcast closet under the stairs. Or you might say under the stars. We'll say under the stairs.

Okay. Y'all, I have got to tell you, before we get to Hannah -- which is going to be a great conversation. I have got to tell you about the text I got yesterday. Actually, I'm not even going to tell you, I'm going to let you hear it. But let me set it up. Okay? So I don't have to explain to you anything about my co-host over here, K.C. You get him, right? You get him. Or you're still trying to figure him out like I am. Okay. But he's just a little -- Bro Bro is a little cray-cray. And I love him and he makes me laugh. Okay, so I get a text -- well, I texted you first, I believe, and I said, "Hey, making sure we're on in the morning" and the time and stuff. And then I get this text back as a confirmation. And I'm not even going to set it up anymore, I'm just going to let you hear what I heard. It's a minute and 37 seconds. Here you go.

K.C. Wright: (Voicemail recording) J.R., looking forward to tomorrow being with you, as always. Me being a girl dad, we've been listening to a lot of Little Mermaid soundtrack in my Jeep as we travel, and so I've kicked out a song for you just to put a smile on your face and to put some joy in your heart. Here's a little ditty from the city that I just wrote from "Part of Your World," Little Mermaid.

(Singing) I want to be where the people are. I want to see, I want to see them dancing. I want to come over tomorrow and record with you. Wish we recorded out in the sun, but under the stairs we'll surely have fun drinking coffee. After every podcast recording asking, "Do you have to pee?" We will record The 4:13. We will pray and kick the day off, we will consume coffee beans and chocolate. We will have fun, not in the sun, but sadly shoved under the stairs. It'll be swell. I promise not to yell. We will talk Jesus and how to reach just one more. I'll not be late. Being on the podcast with you is fate. I'll see you tomorrow. It'll be neat to record with you under the stairs.

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm telling you, I laughed so hard. And I know you're a little embarrassed. Thank you for letting me use it.

K.C. Wright: You know, I think when we started this podcast, I used to talk you out of stuff.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, you did.

K.C. Wright: Now that I've aged and we're several years into this, with millions of downloads, I just don't care anymore.

Jennifer Rothschild: No. I know, I know. Ellie cares, though.

K.C. Wright: And I trust you. I trust you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ellie cares.

K.C. Wright: Oh, let me tell you. Ellie heard me recording that last night, and she was begging me, "Do not send it, Daddy." But, of course, she's 13, y'all. Everything is cringy to her.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

K.C. Wright: It's cringy.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's embarrassing.

K.C. Wright: Oh, that's so cringy. That's so cringy.

Jennifer Rothschild: And let's be honest, it was a little cringy, but not as cringy as Ellie said. It was hilarious. Did y'all catch my favorite line? Do you remember? Do you know what my favorite line is, K.C.?

K.C. Wright: What is it?

Jennifer Rothschild: Something about between the podcast we ask, "Do you need to pee?"

K.C. Wright: Yeah. And that is true.

Jennifer Rothschild: It is true.

K.C. Wright: As soon as we're done with every podcast -- she is such a hostess with the mostest -- she will open the door and let air in, and then she will kindly look at me and say, "Do you have to pee?" Because that's a real thing. Because guess what keeps this podcast going?

Jennifer Rothschild: Coffee.

K.C. Wright: We are fueled on Jesus and coffee.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. And one of them makes us get a very full bladder.

K.C. Wright: And guess what? This podcast closet is so small, one of us -- you have to get up --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, right.

K.C. Wright: -- and out so I can get around you.

Jennifer Rothschild: We have to go single file in and out.

K.C. Wright: Oh. But, see, Ellie is taking ice skating lessons, and I pick up her bestie, Brooklyn, every Saturday morning. And do we listen to Christian radio? No. Podcasts? No. What are they listening to?

Jennifer Rothschild: What?

K.C. Wright: Little Mermaid soundtracks.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, that's why it's so in your mind.

K.C. Wright: So I'm, like, literally waking up in the middle of the night with Little Mermaid in my head, soundtrack songs.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, now everyone else will be too, because you just -- (singing) under the stairs. You just did it. Thank you, K.C.

K.C. Wright: You're welcome.

Jennifer Rothschild: Thank you. Now it's time to go back to the deep end and get some Ecclesiastes into our hearts.

K.C. Wright: Oh, I need this.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, maybe that will displace some of the Little Mermaid cringe. All right, go for it, introduce Hannah.

K.C. Wright: Hannah Anderson is an author and Bible teacher who lives in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia. Her books include "Humble Roots: How Humility Grounds and Nourishes your Soul," "Turning of Days: Lessons from Nature, Season, and Spirit," and "Heaven and Nature Sing." Hannah's goal is to encourage you to think deeply about how the Gospel transforms every area of our lives.

All right. This is going to be so good.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yep, it is.

K.C. Wright: Here's Hannah and Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, Hannah, I'm so glad that you and I are going to talk about what we're about to talk about, because I happen to be an Old Testament girl. I just love it, love it, love it. There's so many hidden treasures there. So I've got to start with the first question: why did you choose to write -- well, first, why did you choose to study and then write about the Book of Ecclesiastes? Because people may not recognize, like, why is it relevant today? So why Ecclesiastes, and why is it relevant?

Hannah Anderson: Well, like you, Jennifer, I love the Old Testament. But I particularly love the wisdom books, so books like Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Song of Solomon, and Ecclesiastes. And I've always loved the poetry in those books, and for some reason they just resonate with me. But when I was younger, I found myself kind of gravitating toward Proverbs. It seemed to kind of give me a sense of how to go into life, and here's what you can expect.

But as I got older, I realized that Ecclesiastes resonated with my questions a little bit more. And so I tell folks that Ecclesiastes is like if Proverbs and Job got together and had a baby. So you've got this wisdom, but there's also this, like, overtone of life is not working out the way I expected and it's not that great.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. I don't think I'll ever forget that line. If Proverbs and Job had a baby, it would be Ecclesiastes. That is so good. I've never thought of it that way. But just as I'm kind of running through it in my mind, the little bit that I know of Ecclesiastes, it does. That makes so much sense.

Okay, so here's what's interesting, though. Because a lot of people think -- you know, they would avoid Ecclesiastes because they think, well, it's just so depressing. You know, there's -- it's just so depressing. So I'm curious if there were any big surprises that you found as you really dug in. Like, is there more in it than just questions and what feels unresolved?

Hannah Anderson: Absolutely. You're right that it's kind of a mulligan in the Scripture. I think if we are accustomed to coming to the Scripture for insight and guidance and comfort and that's how we read the Bible, when we come to Ecclesiastes, it's not really offering much of that. It gives us insight, but it presents a lot more questions than answers. And so I think because of that, we tend to avoid it. There's kind of an emotional dissonance with it. And quite frankly, we don't know what to make of it because you don't hear the voice of God in the text necessarily. It sounds like someone just writing out all their frustrations, like you stumbled across somebody's journal and they're just venting in the pages. And so initially if you read it, it can be hard to know what is being communicated.

But as I got into my study, as I got into the text, one of the things that was really important to me is the recognition that the church has always understood this to be Scripture. And even before the church, Jewish tradition and the rabbis understood this within the Jewish text. So even though it makes us a little uncomfortable, it's always been received as Scripture, and so that means there's something there for us from God. So I approached it with that question, then: what is that I'm supposed to see? And, you know, among other things, I think it's an invitation to be honest. It's an invitation to be honest with our struggles and to know that God can receive them and God can contain them.

So for me initially, the invitation I felt was a modeling within Scripture saying, you know what, sometimes we can let down our guard a little bit, and God can handle the questions that we bring to him. And not only that, but he's going to be present in the process of our struggles and our fear and our doubt. And so in some sense, I kind of think of Ecclesiastes as maybe like Jacob wrestling with God at Peniel, right? So there's this kind of affirmation that you can struggle with God, and you know you can because here's a book in the Scripture that shows us someone doing that.

Jennifer Rothschild: And then the result is that you would be blessed also through it. And sometimes I think, Hannah, we're afraid to acknowledge that we feel this angst or have these questions because we want to make sure God looks good. Protect his brand, you know. And that's not what is happening in Ecclesiastes. So I know there's some listeners right now who are thinking, okay, you know what, I need to reread this book. So I would love it if you just kind of become Instructor Hannah for a minute and give us an overview of how we should read Ecclesiastes. Like, if we've never read it, how should we read it? Like -- you mentioned it's part of the wisdom literature, so kind of give us a picture of what that means. And, like, how should we acknowledge or apply the historical or cultural context to our reading of Ecclesiastes?

Hannah Anderson: Right, right. Such good questions. And I'm going to jump off just at first on the wisdom literature question, because I think folks might have some familiarity with Proverbs or Psalms, and you know that it's not straightforward. So you don't just go to Proverbs and read, like, a storyline or a narrative. It jumps around from topic to topic and you get these pithy sayings. That same thing is happening in Ecclesiastes.

And as well in Psalms, you have, like, these really emotionally intense sections where you have to catch your breath. You know, you read one psalm and you're like, okay, I need to step away for a minute and process that. That's similar to what's happening in Ecclesiastes. It is poetry. It's Hebrew poetry. And what that means is it doesn't go in a straightforward way. And it's also really dense. So there's a lot of layers to everything that's being said, and you just have to take it slowly and you have to let it kind of meander.

One of the things I love about the structure of Ecclesiastes, though, is it tends to circle. So we think of conversations going in a straight line, that we go from this idea to the next idea, and then I tell you this. And that's how we were taught to write papers, right? We're in high school and we're supposed to have our topic sentence, and then we give three proofs, and then we have a conclusion.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Hannah Anderson: That's not Ecclesiastes. So one of the things that's interesting is if you start reading it, you're going to start to feel disoriented really quickly. You're going to feel like you're turning in circles. You're going to say, Wait a minute, didn't we just talk about this? Yeah, you did. And what that structure is attempting to do is replicate the feeling of wandering through life in circles.

So the topic of Ecclesiastes is essentially can we find meaning and purpose under the sun? Can we make sense of life? And so the way it's designed is to kind of get you turned around and upside down, because you're supposed to feel through reading it that kind of disorientation until it eventually resolves. And there are resolutions within it that point us back to the God who is beyond the sun, that we may not be able to find lasting meaning in things like money or work or relationships, but that our trust can be put in God, and that's what helps us as we're moving through life, even if it feels like we're going in circles.

So one thing when you approach Ecclesiastes is you just have to know from the front that it's trying to do something in poetry. It's not going to be a straightforward read, and it's probably going to be a slow read. So take your time. Don't try to push through it. And if you feel confused, you might actually be getting it right.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's a good word, because I think that's where people stop, it's confusing. That's really a good understanding of -- well, what I love about it is the way it is structured represents the way we feel sometimes. It's just that meandering, wandering.

And so I'm curious for you personally, how has what you learned in Ecclesiastes perhaps changed the way you see or do life?

Hannah Anderson: Right. Well, one of the things that was really present in my mind as I was reading and studying was that I come to it as a person of faith, trusting that Jesus Christ has come into this chaos. And the incarnation is the teaching that God, who was beyond the sun, came into life under the sun, that he came into the chaos to care for us, to redeem us, to give us purpose and meaning.

So when I was reading and studying Ecclesiastes, I always had in the back of my mind Jesus is going to answer these questions. So I actually read Ecclesiastes in close parallel with the Gospels. I expected Ecclesiastes to bring the questions forward, to frame up the problem, knowing it may not resolve it perfectly. But those are the very questions that Jesus comes to answer. And so part of what I hope to do in the study, and I hope people will take away, is we kind of launch -- as we establish the question from Ecclesiastes, we also try to maybe resolve it through the teaching of the life and death and resurrection of Jesus.

So for me personally, reading it that way gave me permission to let Ecclesiastes say what it says. I don't have to resolve it because Jesus is going to resolve it. And so I could really rest in the places that were like, you know what? Life is terrible. You can do your best and you can work hard and you can invest your life's energy and time into something and it can be destroyed in a moment. Or you can go through life lonely, and what good is that? And so it presents all of these observations about how hard life can be. And I guess I felt freedom to say, yeah, yeah, that's actually true, because I knew that Jesus held the answer to those questions.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's a good application for everything really, Hannah. You know, Jesus really is the anchor. If we lay that template of the truth of who he is over all of these questions and uncertainty and chaos, there does become a greater hope. So that's really -- you're making me want to read it again. And, of course, we are recommending and giving away one of your studies. So hang on 4:13ers, I'm going to tell you how to do that in a minute.

But this is not something you may expect, Hannah, so -- it's a bonus question. I'm just very curious after just kind of hearing the way you think about Scripture and do life. You wrote another book a while back called "Humble Roots." Okay? And the subtitle was "How Humility" -- what is it? -- "Grounds and Nourishes Your Soul," I believe. I would love to pause just for a minute from Ecclesiastes, because I do think it takes humility to read Ecclesiastes without getting all freaked out. I would like to just hear your take on that. How does humility ground us and nourish us? How does that impact us when we're approaching anything in life?

Hannah Anderson: I'm so glad you brought that up. Because when I wrote "Humble Roots," it was the beginning of a process for me of coming to the limits of my own power. It was a season of my life where I was working really hard, I was doing what I thought I should be doing in terms of serving God, loving other people, and yet my efforts weren't necessarily producing what I thought they should or I expected they should. And so it was a season in which God was teaching me dependence. And that's how I define humility in the book, is a recognition of our creatureliness, that we are dependent on God, that we aren't God, and there's a limit to what we can do.

And so the connection to Ecclesiastes is that a lot of what's happening in the book of what the teacher -- that's the main kind of voice in the book who is giving his observations about life. The main thing that's happening is he's progressing from self-confidence to humility. You see this kind of development of his character through all of these different conversations, where he starts out trusting that he can make it through this life. He's going to try to find wisdom, he's going to try to find happiness, and he's going to test riches, or he's going to test his work, or he's going to test relationships. And he goes in confident that he's going to be able to do life successfully, and he's met with frustration after frustration after frustration.

And so if there is a resolution to Ecclesiastes, it's the humbling of the teacher to the point where he recognizes, I can't count on anything. I can't count on myself, I can't count on my work, I can't count on other people. I can't even count on the seasons. I can count on God. That is the only one I can count on in this life. And that ultimately is humility, where we recognize who we are in relationship to who God is, and then praise and honor him accordingly. And that's kind of the resolution that's offered in Ecclesiastes, as limited as it is, it's fear God, keep his commandments. You know, find joy in your work, find joy that you can, but ultimately fear God and keep his commandments, because he's the only one that we can depend on.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. For someone listening who might not be as familiar with Scripture, fear God and keep his commandments, break that down for us just a little bit. Because I don't believe Scripture is saying we should be afraid of God or legalistic in not failing in his commandments. So how do we apply that verse in a very practical way?

Hannah Anderson: That is a great question, Jennifer. I'm glad you caught that. Because you're right that the language of fear within the Scripture does not mean the same thing we mean today. So it means respect or honor or recognize his power. So it's not recognize his power because you're afraid of him. He is a good, loving, just God. But you recognize that he has the power. He created the universe, he sustains the universe. He created us, he sustains our life. And ultimately we're bowing the knee in acknowledgement and recognition that we can't do this, that we need him. We need his power and his grace in our lives. And so that's what the fear part means. It means to honor and respect and to give the worth that is due to God. Not to ourselves, but to God.

And keep his commandments is kind of a -- it isn't literal in the -- as you mentioned, it's not like try to keep every legalistic rule. It is follow in his ways. Follow him as your guide. And his commandments, the way he teaches us to be in life, the wisdom that he gives in the Scripture, the wisdom that is revealed in Jesus Christ as The Way, who fulfills all of God's law perfectly, that's how we're supposed to navigate this life. So it's more about a posture of be humble; know that God is God, and you are not; give him the honor due his name; and walk in his ways and submit to following his way through life, not our own.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hannah, that's so good. There's so much freedom there, there really is. I mean, there is a lack of striving and just a humility that receives our life in God through Christ, and we respond to it. It reminds me a little bit of Micah 6:8. Our pastor's been preaching through that, you know, that God has shown us what is good and what he desires. And it's just what you describe, that we love mercy and we do justly and we walk humbly with our God. He does it through us and in us.

Oh, girl, this is so good. So glad you've written this study. I cannot wait to dig in. We're going to get to our last question. And you've kind of alluded to it a little bit, but I want to make sure it is super clear to all of us. Okay. Is there hope in Ecclesiastes? When we're mired in the middle of the, oh, my goodness, teacher, this is so depressing, is there hope in Ecclesiastes? And if so, what is it?

Hannah Anderson: Yeah. I think there is hope. I think there's hope in naming the reality of life, giving us permission to speak truthfully about how hard life is. But I think the hope of Ecclesiastes is the same hope that we -- and you're going to have to follow me with this. It's the same hope we see in the cross, right? So when Jesus is crucified and he bears the weight of sin and the curse in his body, that's a really depressing thing. We know it as our salvation, so I think we sometimes forget that that moment in time Satan thought he had won. This was the climax of all of the brokenness of the world coming down on Jesus Christ, and it looked like for a moment that evil had won.

And I think what's happening in Ecclesiastes is the naming of the things that rested on Christ: the brokenness, the evil, the sin that we experience, the sin that we perpetuate. But the hope is that God raised Jesus three days later. And so we can come to Ecclesiastes with a resurrection hope and a resurrection vision that all of these things that we're reading, we have to name the same way that Jesus had to go to the cross before he would be raised again. And in naming them, in facing them, in bearing the weight of sin, he destroyed death and hell.

And when we are processing through our own lives, coming to texts like this that are so difficult, we have to believe that God is taking us through a similar process of naming the brokenness so that through Christ he will bring us to new life. And so it's almost what's on the other side of that brokenness that is the hope that is implied in Ecclesiastes, and I think what Ecclesiastes does is it sets you up for resurrection.

Jennifer Rothschild: On the other side of brokenness is hope. It sets you up for resurrection. So read Ecclesiastes, read Hannah's book, and go ahead and do what she said. Feel the feelings, name the brokenness, and then recognize that on the other side is hope, hope of resurrection.

K.C. Wright: And all the people said Amen.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

K.C. Wright: Well, you know you need this Bible study. As the seasons are changing from summer to fall, God can use this study to change you and ground you in hope. We will have a link to "Life Under the Sun" by Hannah on the Show Notes just for you at 413podcast.com/314. And you can also win one.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yay.

K.C. Wright: Go to Jennifer's Insta right now @jennrothschild to register to win.

Okay, our friends, this was some good stuff for you today. And we hope you have a good week and experience hope no matter what you face. In fact, you knew this was coming.

Jennifer Rothschild: You can --

K.C. Wright: You can experience hope because you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

Jennifer and K.C.: And you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, K.C., do you need to pee?

K.C. Wright: Oh, my --

Jennifer Rothschild: Did you know I was going to do that?

K.C. Wright: That's hilarious. No, I'm good.

Jennifer Rothschild: My coffee cup is empty, my bladder is full. Podcast is a wrap.