4:13 Podcast: Can I Gain Confidence Through Biblical Humility? With Dr. Joel Muddamalle [Episode 328]

Jennifer Rothschild: Heaven. If you want to go, you need to know. Well, in my "Heaven: When Faith Becomes Sight" new Bible study, I'll explore the subject of Heaven with you from a biblical perspective. I'll separate what's true about Heaven from myths and media depictions and hopeful guesses. When you walk through this seven-week video-based Bible study with me, you are not only going to get a deeper understanding of what God has prepared for you, his child, but also you will learn how to live with confidence today as you look forward to the glorious unending that is to come.

It's video based. You can do it with a group or on your own. So go to 413podcast.com/Heaven to get your copy. Plus, I've got some free things there that come with it for the 4:13 family. Don't just wonder about Heaven. Embrace it with a faith that turns anticipation into excitement and peace. All right. 413 podcast.com/Heaven. And now here we go for The 4:13.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle: Humility is first and foremost about an awareness of God. And the order absolutely matters. You see, if I am aware of who God is, now I can rightly understand who I am. If I don't have an anchor that defines who I am, I will fill in the dots with, again, me, myself, and I. And what I need is not an elevated view of myself; I need a right view of myself. And how can I get a right view of myself? Well, God gives me the right view of who I am.

Jennifer Rothschild: The peace we long for begins when we get to the end of ourselves. Those words are from today's 4:13 guest, Dr. Joel Muddamalle. And on today's episode, he is going to explain how humility is the missing piece we're looking for to find the security, strength, and confidence we all need. He will break down the theology of humility into bite-sized takeaways that are going to set you free. Humility is the missing piece if you're missing peace.

Do you see what I did there, KC?

KC Wright: Hmm.

Jennifer Rothschild: So what are we waiting for? KC, let's do it.

KC Wright: I'm humble and I'm proud of that.

Hey, welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, our friends. This is Jennifer, just here to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you're living this "I Can" life of Philippians 4:13. We are going to have such a great conversation with such an interesting man today. And I am so glad because I have had an experience this morning, KC.

KC Wright: Let's hear about it.

Jennifer Rothschild: I brought it to the podcast studio.

KC Wright: This is why I show up.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. If you were a girl, I would make you put this on. But it's pink.

KC Wright: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: So I'm holding this in my hand, my people. It is by Maybelline. The reason I have this is because I bought several of them for stocking stuffers. But I am not giving these to my girls.

KC Wright: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: Because I put it on this morning and I thought my face would explode.

Okay, I'm going to put it in your hand. I don't know if you can see it.

KC Wright: (Singing) Maybe it's Maybelline.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's Maybelline. And I'm sure it's a great product, so I'm not really bashing the product. But here's the thing. It's one of those that -- it's supposed to be like a lip plumper and lifter.

KC Wright: Yeah, it says, "Lifter, plump."

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. But you know what's in it?

KC Wright: What? I see it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Tell them.

KC Wright: Okay. The ingredient is chili pepper.

Jennifer Rothschild: Exactly. And I felt like my face needed a fire extinguisher. I put it on, I was like, do I have bees on my mouth? And then it was like, somebody get the fire extinguisher. And then I've got my face under the sink and I've got pink lip gloss running all down my chin.

KC Wright: What?

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm just saying.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: KC, I so wish you could do it. But it's pink. I don't want you to do that.

KC Wright: Right, right.

Jennifer Rothschild: But, dude, you feel like your face is on fire.

KC Wright: Why -- I don't understand. Why?

Jennifer Rothschild: Because women -- it's a thing. Women want their lips to be as plump and pouty as possible. I don't know why, but we do.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So -- I don't. I want mine to feel like they can remain on my face and not hurt. So I'm going to return the other two. I opened that, but I'm going to return the other ones.

But I'm just saying, my people, all of us who want plump lips, like, pinch them. That's all we need to do. Just pinch -- okay? -- and then pout. But do not put chili powder -- or chili pepper. What in the world?

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. And so this wouldn't be a problem, KC, if Jennifer were just humble enough to be fine with the lips God gave me instead of trying to enhance them with something that actually makes me need to call the fire department. So I think this is a timely -- very timely conversation for me. I'm sure no one else out there needs to hear about humility, but I do. So can you introduce Joel and let's -- Dr. Muddamalle has so much good stuff to say, so introduce him.

KC Wright: Dr. Joel Muddamalle is a Bible teacher, theologian, author, podcaster himself, husband, and father of four. He's the Director of Theology and Research at Proverbs 31 Ministries, and he also has founded the online platform Humble Theology, where he shares original Bible-based content, including courses and free teachings to help Christians understand Scripture.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that.

KC Wright: You are going to love this guy. So let's lean in, listen in to Jennifer and Dr. Joel.

Jennifer Rothschild: Joel, I have looked forward to this conversation, because it's a topic that's near to my heart that we don't talk about much. And we're going to talk about humility. Okay. But before we do, I want to start with this. Okay? I want us to start with a biblical definition of self-awareness. Because often when we think of humility, like, we think of thinking less of ourselves or thinking of ourselves less often. So first, would you define for us what a balanced biblical self-awareness is and then define biblical humility as we get started here.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. It's so interesting that you said that and you asked the question right off the bat, because I actually think that humility and self-awareness are actually intrinsically connected to each other. I think this is true biblically, I think this is true theologically, and I think this is absolutely true in terms of our social realities in life.

And so I think self-awareness -- the way that I would just summarize self-awareness is just an ability to be honest with ourselves, you know, an ability to be honest with who we are, which includes the beautiful, amazing, powerful, strength-filled things of who we are, and equally -- and I think this is -- the balance word I think is so important that you used -- and equally being honest about our limits, our inability, our lack of strength, our place that we actually don't have control. And in that place of honesty with ourselves, then we can actually have true self-awareness, something that's not elevated, that's going to lead us into destructive patterns of thinking.

And then also not undervalued or too low, because that will lead us to places of inferiority and insecurity and anxiety-ridden living. And so I think just at the crux, at the very core of self-awareness has to be honesty.

And then I would make the step right after there, Jennifer, like, right after that is where the handshake with humility happens, because humility absolutely necessitates honesty.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, I love that. And so I do think as believers we get confused about what true humility is, so -- well, let me give you this example. I remember one time a dating relationship a million years ago, and this guy was -- I thought he was being very arrogant about something. And I don't remember the nature of the conversation, I just remember the result. Basically he said to me, "Listen, I am one of the most humble people you will ever meet. You've got this all wrong." Okay. And I just remember how it hit me so weird, like, wait a minute. If you're really humble, do you brag about that? Or -- you know what I mean? It just really threw me off.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So can you talk to us about what this connection is, like -- because some people I do believe -- like, we can think we're really being humble, when it's really just an inverted pride. Like, we're really --

Dr. Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- just building ourself up by acting meek or whatever. So give us an understanding of all that, please.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle: Yeah, yeah. Okay. So we've probably all famously heard the definition of what humility is. Humility isn't thinking less of ourselves, it's just thinking of ourselves less often. This is historically attributed to C. S. Lewis. Now, there's some debate on whether or not Lewis actually said it or not, but kind of historically traditionally that's kind of where you would kind of find the source.

Now, just in all fairness and honesty, super dangerous ever to disagree with the great C. S. Lewis, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle: So I'm not going to disagree with Lewis, but I am going to suggest that biblical humility has a starting spot, and the starting spot actually is not with ourselves. I think the enemy -- one of the ways that we're being conned into living our life is through what I've kind of referred to as the unholy trinity of me, myself, and I. We want to filter all of our life through what can I get, what's best for me, how is this going to help me? And in honesty, that is the slogan of our culture and our society. And we're seeing relationships being ruined, we're seeing marriages that just self-destruct, we're seeing families that are just being absolutely devastated by this me-centered way of living.

And so -- you know, I'm a theologian, and so I'll use some theological terms, and then I want to just define them.

Jennifer Rothschild: Good.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle: I think our anthropology -- so that comes from humanity, Anthropos and logia, kind of the study of. And so our anthropology at times can be derived from a Genesis 3 kind of living, the reality of the fall. And my view is this isn't wrong, but I also think that our starting spot actually ought not be Genesis 3, our starting spot actually ought to be in Genesis 1 and 2 with the ideal of humanity. Because if we can return to what God's ideal is for humanity, we can actually make sense of and truly understand the tragedy of what takes place with the fall. And so the fall inverts and subverts our vision and our way of living. It wants us to be self-centered. This is the opposite of self-awareness, right? This is self-obsession at its best.

And so what is humility? I've kind of defined humility in my book "The Hidden Peace" as a three-part movement. Humility is first and foremost about an awareness of God. And the order absolutely matters. You see, if I am aware of who God is, now I can rightly understand who I am. If I don't have an anchor that defines who I am, I will fill in the dots with, again, me, myself, and I. And what I need is not an elevated view of myself; I need a right view of myself. And how can I get a right view of myself?

Well, God gives me the right view of who I am. And, you know, Genesis 2:15-16, that we're created in the likeness and image of God. Those two Hebrew words, "tselem" and "demut," which refer to "likeness" and "image," are used in the ancient near Eastern world to talk about children of royalty. Like, this is pretty epic. This is pretty amazing that the first picture that we have of humanity is actually a picture of royal children. Like, we kind of have to ask this question, well, what have they done to achieve such incredible status? It's like, absolutely nothing.

Jennifer Rothschild: Nothing, yeah.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle: No, they've done nothing. It's just a gracious gift that has been bestowed upon them. And now this gift has a standard to live up to. There's a responsibility that comes with this gift. And so humility is first knowing who God is. And if I can know who God is, then I can know who I am.

Now, if I know who God is and I know who I am, I am rightly equipped to relate to other image bearers of God. And I think the trajectory of this is so vital, because first and foremost, if I have peace with God, then I can have peace internally, you know? And the type of peace that I can have is not a peace -- and this is exclusive. Like, people can experience peace in this world in all different ways. And oftentimes it's momentary, it's conditionally based. If A plus B equals C, then that's when peace is. But this is, I believe, theologically and biblically exclusive for the children of God, that the type of peace that God gives his children is the type of peace that is not conditioned on situations and circumstances. It's purely conditioned on the presence of God, Jesus with us, the Spirit of God in us, in the midst of the hard and hurtful things of life, you know? And so it's like, okay, cool, I've got peace with God, I can now have peace internally, and now I'm positioned and equipped and empowered to pursue peace with other people.

And so humility for me is this three-part movement, and it always has to start with a right understanding and awareness of who God is so that I can know who I am so I'm able to rightly relate to other people.

And then just the last thing I'd say -- because you absolutely nailed it, it's like, man, humility has absolutely been weaponized. Some people, as soon as they heard you say the phrase "humility," they might have been tempted to be like, ooh, this might be the episode to skip. You know?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Right, right.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle: But you know what's fascinating? I don't know if you've experienced this before, Jennifer. But, like, for me, humility is this thing -- when I hear the word, I kind of have this turnoff. But when I experience it with other people, it is the most encouraging, hope-giving experience. And it's just amazing that it's this thing that when we experience it, we love it and we're drawn to it, we're attracted to it, but when the world suggests it to us, we want to reject it.

And so humility is actually, I've found, a protection, a prevention, and a preservation. So again, biblical humility.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle: Biblical humility protects us from thinking too low of ourselves. Because we are children of God. We're made in his likeness and in his image. And if we think too low of ourselves, inevitably we will be walked all over. And nobody wants to be walked all over, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle: But humility is also a prevention. Humility prevents us from thinking too much of ourselves. Because if we think too much of ourselves, inevitably we will be the ones who are walking all over other people. And that's an equal tragedy, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, yes, yes.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle: And then the last thing, humility is a preservation. I think if you're listening right now and you feel unsafe and you're just worried, like, when is the rug going to get pulled out underneath me and is everything going to come falling and crashing down, humility is a preservation that keeps us firmly in the faithful nail-pierced hands of Jesus himself. And there is no safer place for you and I to find ourselves in than in the faithful hands of Jesus. And so that's kind of, you know, how I think -- why I just believe that humility is such a vital virtue that the Lord wants us to be cultivated and rooted in.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, and that's also beautiful, because what it also did is explain why you named your book "The Hidden Peace." It is kind of counterintuitive.

So one of the things that I was going to ask you -- and you've answered it, but I want to make sure we are very clear here. Where does a lack of humility come from? So based on what you just said, I would say from a wrong understanding of God, which leads to a wrong understanding of me. Clarify and simplify. Where does a lack of humility come from?

Dr. Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. A lack of humility comes from a disordered view, a confused view of ourselves. And, you know, I go to Eden, the story of Eden with this nachash, this serpent that's there. And what does the serpent do? The serpent suggests that God is withholding something from you, you know?

And here's the thing about sin and pride and deception, all this stuff. It's less, I think, about the black-and-white wrongs. C. S. Lewis also talks about the moral compass. Like, all of us have a moral compass. We can be like, yeah, this is evil; this is good. Right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle: The deception of the enemy is the presentation of something that is 80% good, but is 20% corrupt. And if we buy into the 20% corrupt and allow that to be our focal point, it will despoil the 80% that is good. You know?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle: And so for me it's like, okay, this is the essence of what pride is doing. You know? So pride promises us clarity and leads us into deeper levels of chaos and confusion. Pride promises us sanity, and it actually spins us out of control, which makes us feel like everything is insane in our life. You know?

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow. Yeah.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle: And humility is actually -- so if pride is a seductive sin, humility is really God's grace to overcome it. Yeah, and so that's where I would just point us to, is just -- and pride -- oh, and here's the other thing.

Pride is overt and covert. So there's an overt -- like, oh, yeah, that's prideful, like, absolutely, like, we can see it. It's kind of like the example that you had. Like, if someone just comes up to me like, "Hey, I'm so humble," you're like, ooh, red flag.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, right.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle: That might be a red flag, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle: But there's a covert kind of pride. And in my book, I refer to it as hidden pride. And what hidden pride is -- that I've found, is hidden pride presents itself as the fruit of the spirit. Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentle -- I mean, you can go through the list, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle: But at the core, at the very center of it, it's not -- so the fruit of the spirit ought to be aimed outward for the edification of God's people and the glorification of God himself. Right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle: So the fruit has an aim and has an ambition, and the ambition is the glorification of God and for the edification of his people. What hidden pride does is it takes these really good fruit and it actually corrupts it on the inside. And so again I go back to that unholy trinity of me, myself, and I. And so all of a sudden, you're not trying to edify God, you're trying to make yourself feel good. And no longer are you trying to -- sorry. Edify people. And only you're trying to edify -- or glorify God, now you're just trying to exalt yourself.

And so the thing about hidden pride is you can run on the fumes of what looks good for a season and for a time. And so imagine just eating a fruit and just like, oh, yeah, like -- you know, I'm Indian, so mangoes are like a big deal in my family. My kids are half Indian, half white. Whenever my mom comes in from Indianapolis, she always brings a big box of mangoes. And my son Levi just loses his mind, he's like, "I love mangoes." We call them Nāyanam'ma. That's the Telugu word for "grandma." But like, "Nāyanam'ma brings the best mangoes," so -- from the Indian store, the whole nine yards. And he eats it and, like -- imagine just my son Levi eating a mango, it's like, "Oh, this is great," and then he gets to the very core of it and he realize the whole thing is filled with algae and fungus, and it's just -- right? And now you go, Oh, my gosh. All the stuff that I was eating, that I thought was good, was actually corrupted. Right?

Jennifer Rothschild: And it eventually damages us.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle: And eventually damages us.

Jennifer Rothschild: What I'm hearing you say, too, is we default -- when we are not thinking and we're just walking, not by the Spirit, we default to self. And self never satisfies self. So even in our attempt to satisfy ourself, we try to satisfy ourself with ourself and we end up worse off.

So I would be curious, Joel, what your thoughts are about the connection between shame and a lack of humility.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. So I think biblically guilt is a really, really great thing that God has given us. But there's a vast difference between guilt that we might feel and shame that is pushed out on us or that we experience internally. So I would just define it very simply. Guilt left unattended will turn into shame.

So guilt -- like, you know, we do something wrong, we sin, we feel guilty about it. Well, that indication, that impulse ought to turn us running towards God. It ought to turn us with repentance and confession and pleading with the Lord, like, "I'm so sorry," and receiving his forgiveness. So guilt actually should turn us towards God.

But if we leave guilt unattended, it will turn into shame. And the more we live in shame, the further we live separate from God and from his people. And the more that we live in shame, we experience humiliation. And humiliation is either poured out onto us -- like, we can't control sometimes if we're going to be humiliated or if we bring humiliation onto ourselves. And so this is where humility is God's gift for us, because humility regains our self-awareness so that when we experience guilt, humility fights the tendency that pride will lead us into shame, because we don't want to deal with that guilt and we want to think -- we want to justify our actions, we want to create all the excuses, but humility is going to empower and equip us to run fast to Jesus and to experience the forgiveness that's there.

And so shame is so devastating because it's so easy to get there. And this is where humility really serves as an antidote to the experience of shame. And if you're living in shame right now, like, you don't have to. You know? Like, there's a way out. And the way out, his name's Jesus. And he loves you and he adores you. And Scripture says while we were still sinners, that he died for -- like, he is ready for our return to his embrace.

Jennifer Rothschild: I remember many years ago, Joel -- because I've been in ministry for many years serving women. And sometimes I've had unhappy women who want to let me know why I shouldn't have said something or written something or done something differently. And early on in ministry, boy, I was -- my fingertips would tingle. I was ready to tell them why they were wrong and had no right, blah, blah, blah. And thankfully the Holy Spirit stopped me many times. But not in -- my heart just went through the whole thing. Like, I felt better, you know, just saying it out loud to myself as if I were sending it to them.

But then over the years -- and it is the gift of humility and reality, just -- you know. C.S. Lewis didn't say this either, but he's been attributed with "I could be wrong" -- this concept of "I could be wrong." But I've said that to myself many times whenever someone disagrees with me, whenever I mess up, I could be wrong. And that means someone else could be right or --

Dr. Joel Muddamalle: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: And there has been such a level of peace and protection when we don't have to self-promote and self-preserve. So everything you're saying here, whereas back in the day, when I was ready to right every wrong and defend myself, it would end up with such complicated emotions. But there is a simplicity in just being found in my identity in Christ and knowing that it's okay. They could be right, I could be wrong, and I don't have to prove either one. I just have to love Jesus and love the truth and love them.

And so all that is getting to this. When a person is experiencing and living out the reality of true biblical humility -- so if you were to describe someone and say because that person lives with biblical humility, he or she relates to others this way, she or he relates to himself this way, and she or he relates to God this way. So how does humility show up internally with us, with others, and with God?

Dr. Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. So I think humility shows up internally with us. And I'm just thinking about some of the more humble people. They would never call themselves humble --

Jennifer Rothschild: No, no.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle: -- you know, but they are. That's kind of what the definition -- which is honestly what led me to really want to pursue this topic. I think of one of maybe our mutual friends, Lysa TerKeurst. Lysa is my boss and my mentor, and I've been working with Proverbs 31 Ministries now for almost ten years. That's just wild. And when I think of humility, I think of somebody like Lysa, who -- like, the way that she relates to herself -- like, she doesn't drink her own Kool-Aid. There's just this realness, a groundedness to who she is. And when you're around people like that, you know, it's like, hey, let's play Monopoly Go or Monopoly Deal, whatever the game is. I actually don't play it with her because she beats me all the time, and so now I'm just like -- I'm too competitive for that.

But there's just this rooted -- this groundedness to them, you know? And when things do get disheveled and when things do become chaotic, it's kind of amazing because these are the types of people that you gravitate towards. Because everything else could be falling apart, but when you're around them, they're able to weather the storm. And, yes, they're going through the emotions and, yes, they're processing it, but there is a comfort of being able to see how they process it, how they talk, how they process through their emotions. And so I would say there's this groundedness.

And humility with God, I think, is -- there's this chapter that I have in the book "When Bad Things Happen to Humble People," you know, and you're just wondering, like, why God? This is the story of Job. Job is consistent, like, why, why, why, why, why? And every time Job is determined to ask the why question, God shows up in this big storm -- right? -- in this whirlwind, and he comes up and he presents to Job. And God's answer to every one of Job's why is who? Job wants to know why things happen and why there's pain and suffering, and God wants to remind Job the who that is with Job in the midst of the suffering, in the midst of the pain, in the midst of the hardship.

And so I think that relationship with God -- when you find a person who is living and rooted in the soil of humility, that there is this conversation that they're able to have with God, where it's not that you never ask why, it's just that the more you're in relationship with God when you ask why and he responds with who, you go, oh, yeah. That's really good news.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. It's their safety.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle: Their safety.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle: Yeah, yeah.

And then with other people, I think that the way humility presents itself is -- and again, this is a muscle, I think, that has to be developed. I don't think this is a checklist that you check a box and that you move on from. And there are seasons when we do this well and there are seasons when we don't do this well, you know?

Jennifer Rothschild: Good word. Yeah.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle: And so I just want to, like, give that safety net there for people. So I'll just give a very real example. My wife and I -- I travel quite a bit for work. My wife and I have been married for almost 18 years. And we've got four children, Liam, Levi, and Luke, and then a little baby girl, Amelia Jane. So we've got from twelve years down to four years, and it's busy, and Britt doesn't get to travel with me as much. Now that the kids are getting older, she gets to travel with me a little bit more.

And so we're going on this flight and I'm getting ready to go teach at a spot. And, you know, Jennifer, I've got, like, all the travel stuff, like the TSA precheck and the Clear and all that, you know. And Britt just hasn't had a bunch of that; she just hasn't really needed it. And normally when we travel as a family, the whole family gets all of that because I do, you know?

So here we are just traveling the two of us, and our tickets print out, and mine prints with all the TSA precheck and all the other stuff, and hers doesn't. And we're kind of running through the airport in Charlotte and she's trying to stop me. She's like, Hey, hey, hey, like -- and I'm like, No, no, it's fine, everything's good. And it's like -- it's not fine. Everything is not good. And we go through, and the TSA agent looks at me and says, "Oh, sir, you've got TSA precheck, but your wife doesn't," you know. And I'm like, "Oh, no." And so I look at my wife and I just say, "All right, babe, you go through the general, I'll go through the TSA, and I'll meet you on the other side."

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle: I know. I know. I know. Exactly.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Okay.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle: She looks at me and -- you know, we've been married long enough now where I know that look that I have seriously misstepped in this entire thing, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle: And so we go to the general line, we wait for a really long time because it's a long line, and it's kind of just silence. And it's this tension that we're living in. And by the end of it, we're sitting down, we're getting our shoes and stuff back on -- because we had to go through the general line, not the TSA precheck -- and I look at her and I'm just like, "Babe, I'm sorry." And she was like, "Well, why?" And I was like, "Well, for me this trip was about efficiency, like, getting to the destination; but for you, it's about relationship." So it doesn't matter if we go -- how fast we go; it matters that we do whatever we're going to do and we're going to do it together.

And so I think for me, what I experienced was like, oh, the gift of humility is just this, again, self-awareness to see rightly where I made a wrong step and to try the best that I can to decrease the distance between -- I did this thing that was an error, I fell short -- which, by the way, is the simple definition of sin, hamartia, missing the mark -- and how fast I can get to a place of repentance and restoration and just being honest with my mix-up.

And so that's what I would say with other people, is you find a person who is willing to just in honesty accept their wrongdoing or their limits or where they misstepped and to fight for the relationship, to fight for restoration when and if it's possible.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's so good. And you really -- at the top of this conversation you explain why that's possible. Because we have this peace from God, we have peace within ourselves, so we're not trying to do anything to protect ourselves. We are safe so we can in humility and grace repent, ask for forgiveness, whatever the thing is. That's such a good picture.

By the way, every wife out there knew as you were saying it, no, no, no --

Dr. Joel Muddamalle: I know.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- don't do it, Joel. Anyway...

Okay. Here's a question to you that I noticed in the book I think is interesting. Okay. You wrote about how excessive curiosity can lead to pride. Okay. So I'm a highly curious person, so I want you to give us an example of what you mean by this, and explain it, and then give us some tips on how to control it.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. So curiosity without limits is absolutely chaos bringing. And so what do I mean by that? So again I go back to the Garden, to Eden, and I just think, okay, how does God create Adam and Eve? What is the context of their creation? And the context of their creation is actually to encourage curiosity, right? It's like Adam and Eve are -- the theological phrase is the dominion mandate. Like, they're given -- I think about Adam naming animals. Like, that's a kind of creative --

Jennifer Rothschild: That's a big deal.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle: Yeah, you know. And they're to cultivate the garden and they're to take -- like, all the stuff is curiosity. In Genesis 3, we find out that God comes and he talks and walks with Adam and Eve. And the Hebrew word there for walking, it doesn't have a destination in mind; it's a leisurely type of walk. But why do you leisurely walk with somebody? To get to know them. To, like, learn. I think God's probably like, Hey, how is your day? What's going -- you know? And all this stuff is happening, so there's curiosity. And there are limits. This is prior to the fall. So what is the limit? You can eat of all the fruit, but of this one do not do it.

See, what God wants for humanity is for humanity to flourish in curiosity, but to keep that curiosity limited so they don't lead themselves into chaos. What the serpent suggests is you don't need limits to your curiosity. You can see what you like, you can desire it, and then you can take of it yourself. This is what happens with the fruit. It's good and pleasing to the eye, it's desirable, and so you reach out with your hand and you take it of your own force. And every time we try to take something that -- just because it looks good, but it wasn't given to us by God, it is implicitly bad. Right? Like, just the context of it is going to put us into danger.

And so what humility does for us is humility serves as the reminder of the limitations to our curiosity. It helps us to be curious in all the areas that God wants us to be curious about. And it reminds us of his law, of his love, of his boundaries that he's established, so that we flourish truly in our humanity and we don't entertain sinful things that curiosity can lead us to. And the more that we engage in those sinful things -- it's kind of fascinating that the language for sin throughout Scripture is animalistic, you know? The enemy is crouching like a lion waiting to devour you. In Genesis 4, I think it is, with Cain and Abel, sin is crouching and waiting to take -- like, the idea is the more that we sin, we're losing our humanity.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, yes.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle: We're becoming more animalistic. That's what the vices of the flesh are doing to us. And so this is where -- like, our curiosity without limits is going to lead us into this place. Well, humility is actually a beautiful gift because it retains our true humanity so that we can live and enjoy the beauty of this creative world within the bounds that God wants us to enjoy it in, which is ultimately for our good.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow. You know, good word. What I'm hearing from all of this, which is -- I love, is that God's design for us as we walk humbly with him, it impacts every area of life. It really does. Sometimes we just make this just about pride and humility. Well, you've either got one or the other. No. When you are truly made humble and choosing humility, it affects everything. Joel, that's such a beautiful -- such a beautiful piece that we can live with.

Okay, brother, we're going to get to our last question, though. I'm highly recommending the book. There's so much more in the book than we can get to today. But I want us to end very practical with this last question. All right. Can you just summarize maybe this into three fundamental steps that we can apply to adopt this mindset of humility.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. So this is something that you can do right now. Well, first of all, at the very end of the book there's actually 13 devotions that are based off of Scriptures on humility. So literally when you get the book, you can actually use that as a 13-day devotional, flip to the back, do one devotional every day. There's a Consider, Cultivate, and Commit section to it. So humility is not a checklist that we move on from, it's actually the soil of the Christian life that we ought to live from. And so that's, like, a very practical thing.

But here's something that you can do literally right now when you get done. You can -- and this is regardless whether it's daytime or nighttime. I'll give you both scenarios. You can get done, you can go out, take off your shoes and your socks and plant your feet in the green grass of God's earth. If it's daytime, look up, look at the clouds. Pay attention to maybe where the sun is. If it's nighttime, gaze into the stars and the constellations. And I want you to just repeat this very simple phrase: "I had nothing to do with holding all of this together."

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle: And then if you want to take it just the next step further, maybe memorize John 1, the first couple verses. "In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, the Word was God. Through him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of man." That right now, when things might feel like they're falling out of control and there's a lack of peace in your life, that actually Jesus is the one who's holding all things together. And that -- my goodness, if that doesn't bring humility into our lives with an awareness of who God is, who I am, and how that impacts all things with other people, then I think we're in for a whole different type of challenge.

And just the last thing I would say, Jennifer, is maybe the thing that surprised me as I was studying this, really doing kind of a biblical theology of humility, something I never had in any of my seminary or doctoral classes -- I just didn't come across this in this way -- was this reality and awareness that, in fact, the natural state of humanity was a posture of humility before God. The natural state. So, like, you know, the Hebrew word for "man" or "humanity" is "adam," and it's related to the Hebrew word "adamah," which refers to the ground or soil. The same concept shows up in Latin. The English words for "human" and "humility" have a common Latin connection with "humanus." And so "humanus" refers to the ground or to the soil.

And so again, why should we care about humility? Because as we retrieve humility as this virtue, we're actually regaining our true humanity. We're returning back to the beautiful state of being that Adam and Eve were prior to the fall in Eden, where they knew exactly who God was. So they knew who they were, so they were going to be equipped to spread the goodness and the greatness of God from within Eden to the ends of the earth.

Jennifer Rothschild: He said -- and I love this statement -- "When we retrieve humility, we regain our humanity." Y'all, don't you love that? When we retrieve humility, we regain our humanity. We return to the person we're supposed to be, the state we were supposed to be in. We know who God is, who we are, and then we can also love others well.

KC Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Good stuff.

KC Wright: That's all I got to say about this. Wow, wow, wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know. I know.

KC Wright: I need to listen to this again and read his book. And you need his book too. We all do. Thankfully, we are giving one away right now on Jennifer's Insta. Simply go to @jennrothschild. You should go there even if we're not giving anything away, because it's filled with daily inspiration, encouragement, hope, and a lot of fun, cool, behind-the-scenes stuff. So go there to enter to win. Or you can go to the Show Notes to connect. And at the Show Notes, there will also be a transcript of this whole conversation. Sometimes I just like to read what I just heard. It kind of -- for me, it reinforces it. So read the transcript at 413podcast.com/328.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know, this will be a great book to start the new year with. I mean, you know, new year, clean slate. You know, put a little hidden peace into your stocking for yourself this Christmas. So you can get the book, as KC said, at 413podcast.com/328.

All right, our friends, until next week --

KC Wright: My turn. My turn.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, go ahead.

KC Wright: Whatever you face --

Jennifer Rothschild: There you go.

KC Wright: -- however you feel, you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

Jennifer and KC: And you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, I think Joel's book is a much better choice for a stocking stuffer than that lip stuff that'll put your face on fire.

KC Wright: Filled with chili pepper? I would absolutely agree.