4:13 Podcast: Can I Cut Through the Lies That Bombard Me? With Alisa Childers [Episode 223]

Alisa Childers: You are enough. You should put yourself first. You are in control of your own destiny. God just wants you to be happy. You only live once. These types of things that kind of sound good on the surface, and it's the thing you want to say to somebody if they're having a hard day --

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Alisa Childers: -- but really when you dig down to the bottom of them, they don't make sense just on a logical level, but they lead to some pretty serious spiritual destruction as well.

Jennifer Rothschild: We've all seen the memes that fill our screens, right? "Live Your Truth," "Follow Your Heart," or this one, "You Are Enough." They sound nice and positive, right? But what if these slogans are actually lies that unhinge us from reality and leave us anxious and exhausted? Well, today's guest, Author Alisa Childers, will examine modern lies that are disguised as truths in our culture. She'll give you practical tools to stand for the truth in a world obsessed with their truth, and you'll be empowered to live the way your Creator designed. This is a right now real and relevant conversation that you need to hear, so, K.C., let's get it going.

K.C. Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you and I up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, hello, our people. Happy December. We're so glad you're with us. I am Jennifer, who has something in her throat. Excuse me. It's too much trouble to edit it. We're all just going to listen to Jennifer clear her throat.

But I am here to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you live this "I Can" life of Philippians 4:13. I'm so thankful that it's true that it is Christ in us who empowers us to be and do all that he's called us to be and do. And you know the drill, our friends. It is just me and K.C., so that means it's two friends, one topic, zero stress.

K.C. Wright: Zero stress.

Jennifer Rothschild: And you might need a little zero stress, because it is December, and that can be a busy time of the year. But I got to tell you, it's starting to chill out for me so that the --

K.C. Wright: Good.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- holiday chaos can kick in.

K.C. Wright: You've had one humdinger, as my grandpa used to say, year. You had one humdinger of a year.

Jennifer Rothschild: My fall was so busy. Literally starting mid-August, I was out every weekend except one. Craziness. Well, and, K.C., you know that well. Because I was wearing out all my people, because Lucy -- Aunt Beverly, who used to keep Lucy, Aunt Beverly can't keep Lucy anymore 'cause she's not been well. And so I have been getting all my friends and all my people to help with the dog while I'm gone. And so, yeah, K.C., you got the call and you guys helped. Ellie was a great dog sitter.

K.C. Wright: Well, it's an honor. And my 12-year-old needs work. Okay? She needs work and cash. No. But she comes over here sometimes and it's like, "Hey, here's Jennifer and Phil. You want to say hi to Phil and Jennifer?" And, no, just runs right past them. "Where's Lucy?" I mean, she's searching the house top to bottom for the dog.

So when I told her -- I picked her up from school and I said, "Well, guess what? You've got a job Saturday. You get to watch Lucy Lou." And she screamed. Literally screamed.

Jennifer Rothschild: Aah.

K.C. Wright: And you talk about -- I can hardly get her motivated for church. She was at my door knocking, going, "Come on, we've got to be there at 9:00. Let's go let Lucy out." I mean, this girl was on it. She was in it to win it. And she just adores Lucy, so...

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, Lucy adores her.

K.C. Wright: The queen of the house.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, yes. And now Ellie is one of her humble servants, so that's awesome for Queen Lucy.

K.C. Wright: It's so true, y'all.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, but here's the fun thing too. I just got to tell you guys. And I haven't told K.C. this, so I'm telling K.C. in front of you. So, yeah, all my Fresh Grounded Faiths conferences are done until January. And so there were several of them here in, like, late October and early November. I would show up at these places and they'd be like, "Where's K.C.? Where's K.C.?" I'm like, "Y'all, he is my seeing eye guy, not my seeing eye dog. He does not travel with me." But, like, we'd be doing these meet and greets, and my husband Phil -- my main guy, right? -- he's with me, and they'd be looking -- they'd say, "Oh, Jennifer, so nice to meet you." And then they'd look at Phil and go, "Are you K.C.?" "No, not K.C. He's my husband." It was hilarious, K.C. So you have gained quite a following.

K.C. Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: These women, they're, like, wanting to meet you.

K.C. Wright: Really?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

K.C. Wright: Wow, what an honor.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know.

K.C. Wright: I mean, seriously, that is a huge deal. And you know what? You're my sister and I love you with all my guts. But next level when I heard you tell a huge church full of ladies that I was single. So I owe you lunch on that one. I really appreciate that. That was hilarious.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Did you hear their reaction?

K.C. Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Well, you're still single and you are always going to be a good catch, K.C., I'm just --

K.C. Wright: And no pressure, I'd like to get married by Christmas, so...

Jennifer Rothschild: So you have two weeks. All right. Stranger things have happened. You never know.

Okay, y'all, we got to cut to this conversation because it's so good. And I will be honest with you -- you'll be able to tell in this conversation -- I just felt like Alisa was spot on. And I loved this conversation. It is so engaging and full of life. So let's get to it and meet Alisa.

K.C. Wright: Let me introduce you to Alisa Childers. She's a wife, mom, author, podcaster, blogger, speaker, and worship leader. She was a member of the award-winning CCM recording group ZOEgirl. I used to play ZOEgirl on the radio.

Jennifer Rothschild: You loved ZOEgirl.

K.C. Wright: Oh, my goodness.

Jennifer Rothschild: I was not going to tell you that until you started introducing. I wanted you to be surprised. Isn't that cool?

K.C. Wright: I know who Alisa is.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, you do.

K.C. Wright: She's currently a speaker at apologetics and Christian worldview conferences, as well as the host of her popular YouTube channel. Alisa's story was featured in the documentary "American Gospel: Christ Crucified" She has been published at the Gospel Coalition, Crosswalk, The Stream, For Every Mom, Decision Magazine, and the Christian Post. And today, my friend, she is a 4:13er.

Jennifer Rothschild: Woo-hoo.

K.C. Wright: So sit back and listen to Alisa and Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: Alisa, your book is called "Live Your Truth and Other Lies." Which is a great title, by the way.

Alisa Childers: Thank you.

Jennifer Rothschild: So I would like to know just from the get-go, what are some of the lies that you have observed that made you feel like this was a thing, like something you needed to shed light on?

Alisa Childers: Right. Well, when I began to think about writing this book, I was observing that our culture has bought into two great lies. And the first one being that humans are inherently good. I mean, I'm a mom, so this is the main message that's being aimed at my kids through all the media. It's basically telling them, you know, you're not inherently sinful, you're not inherently broken, you're good, so all you need to do is just kind of plumb the depths of your own heart, discover the gold there, and then just unleash that on the world or declare that to the world. And I think that's the first great lie.

And then the second great lie is this idea that truth is fluid or that truth, especially when it comes to things like morality and religion, that it's just sort of -- you know, you live your truth and I'll live my truth. And there's really no absolute truth to these things, and even if there is, nobody could claim to know it. So when you put those two great lies together, you really get this cultural phenomenon, I think, that we're seeing where people are essentially buying into the lie that you should live your truth, you speak your truth because that might be different from my truth.

And then, of course, in the book we talk about several more that are built on the foundation, I think, largely of those two. So we have things like, "You are enough," "You should put yourself first," "You are in control of your own destiny," you know, "God just wants you to be happy," "You only live once." These types of things that kind of sound good on the surface and it's the thing you want to say to somebody if they're having a hard day --

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Alisa Childers: -- but really, when you dig down to the bottom of them, they don't make sense just on a logical level, but they lead to some pretty serious spiritual destruction as well.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, yeah. Because just even what you just shared are very self-indulgent. And self never satisfies self, so it's going to be a total negative cycle that's going to lead to destruction. And that's why I like how you're exposing this in your book, because we need the truth. But as you already mentioned, truth is very subjective in our culture.

Alisa Childers: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: So tell us why it matters to point out the distinction between the truth and what you just called your truth, live your truth. Why does it matter that we point out the distinction?

Alisa Childers: Right. Well, you know, if you look into the world and you just kind of approach it from an atheistic, secular worldview, when it comes to what we should or shouldn't do, you know, those oughts and ought nots, you know, ultimately if there's no God, then it's just really your opinion, Jennifer. You know, whatever you think is right to do, you do; and I'll do whatever I think is right to do.

But as we look out through history, we know that if there is not an objective sense of right and wrong, then really it's just whoever has the most power, whoever's the biggest and strongest, that gets to decide what those things are. I mean, look back at Nazi Germany. Most Germans in that time would have agreed with Hitler that, you know, we should execute Jews. And they believed all sorts of horrific things. And so it can't be that it's just the biggest and the most powerful that get to decide these things, which is why, of course, in Christianity we know there's a moral lawgiver. There's somebody above all of us that decides what actually is right and wrong, and those standards are based on his character. We have words to describe God's character, but that really flows down into what we should and shouldn't do.

And the reason this is so important is because -- well, let's just take the two of us. Let's say that my truth is that I want to have all your money, that all your money is mine. And if that's my truth, well, is that also true for you? Well, it can't be, because you're not going to be okay with that, right? So at that point, do we just fight it out? Or maybe we call the police and let the police decide. But there's somebody above the police, and maybe it's a government. But as we just observed, you know, whole entire governments can codify into law things that are immoral, things that are wrong and that hurt a lot of people. And so I think ultimately when it comes to morality, it really matters because we know that God exists, he's real and he has character, he has attributes, and we want to pursue being more and more like him.

And then in the other realm of religion, it matters because if you think about a lot of other religions and the way they started, you have a guy sitting in a cave or under a tree and he gets some sort of super transcendent experience and gets some kind of message or way to live. And then people try it out, it works for them, so they get more followers and it works for them. Right? This is kind of how most other religions work. But Christianity is very different in that it depends upon objective truth being a real thing.

And I'll just go to Paul. Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15 that if Christ has not been raised, your faith is in vain and you're still in your sins. In other words, if the resurrection of Jesus wasn't a real event in history, like objectively true in objective reality, if it didn't happen, then Christianity is false. And so that, I think, is what's so unique about Christianity, is it's not just a philosophy, it's not just a set of steps to do to try to make your life better. But sadly, Jennifer, I think so many in our culture have bought into the lie that Christianity is just something you add to your life. It's something that will make your life better. It'll work really well for you, it'll make you happier. But, you know, if we really look at Scripture, and even some of the promises Jesus made. He said, "The world's going to hate you, just like they hated me," 'cause he was convicting the world of their sin.

Paul tells us to -- you know, we are going to be persecuted if we're Christians. So as Christians, it's not always going to feel like it's working. But -- and this is what we go into in the book, is we have such a deep abiding, eternal, not temporary, unchanging joy when we are in relationship with our Creator, and that transcends some of our more temporary circumstances of suffering or something that may not be working for us today. But ultimately Christianity is not a philosophy or just a set of steps, it's a relationship with the Creator of the universe. And it's true in objective reality. So it doesn't matter what might be true for someone else or somebody else; it's true in reality, and so we have the opportunity to line up with that truth or rebel against it. And this has sort of been the story of humanity since the Garden of Eden, right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, in a nutshell, you just said it. I mean, that really is, that is the story of us.

Alisa Childers: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And it's interesting as you describe that too, Alisa, as you're talking about the truth, objective truth, Jesus said, "I am the truth." So that's where it goes from that philosophy to the relationship to the incarnation of the truth.

And so I think you've already kind of explained this, but just to be super clear, how do we get to this objective truth?

Alisa Childers: Well, thankfully, you know, God made us rational beings, right? So we as human beings, there's a material aspect to us and there's an immaterial aspect to us. And so God gave us minds to think, he gave us senses to look into the world and observe. And we know even from Scripture where -- Paul in Romans 1, he really unpacks how every single person who's ever been born has access to knowledge of God just by looking out into creation. In fact, he even says it's the rejection of that that really condemns people. And then if you continue on, you get to see where the beginnings of every false religion or philosophy that's come along the pike really comes from. It's when the creature worships the creation rather than the Creator.

And so we all have access to this knowledge, but we also have the revealed Word of God, we have the Holy Spirit to help reveal these things to us. But ultimately we must live as people of the truth because -- and we'll swing back to this kind of original thought that we started with -- we are inherently sinful. If I thought that I could just trust my heart, if I thought that my heart and my feelings, my instincts were inherently good, then I would be on board with the messaging of culture. I would be on board to say, "Yeah, you know what? You just need to dig down inside your own heart. You need to do some more introspection, maybe some more deep thinking, maybe some more self-care. Maybe you just need to realize your inner potential." If I thought we were inherently good, that would be the right message. But there's a big but, right?

We know from Scripture that human beings were made in the image and likeness of God, and because of that have inherent dignity and value and worth. All of that is true. But then comes the fall. We chose to rebel against God, which introduced sin and death to the world. And as Romans tells us, death spread to all men. So we know that we inherited this sinful nature from Adam, and that is what needs to be reconciled to God, that's what needs to be fixed, realigned, whatever word you want to use.

But ultimately, I mean, I think the most simple way to say it is that our inner moral compasses are broken. We know this from Scripture. We can't trust our instincts, we can't follow our hearts or trust our feelings because our feelings lie. Scripture tells us that our hearts are deceitful, that our hearts are wicked. Jesus even describes all of the immorality that springs out of the hearts of men. And he actually goes into quite a bit of detail listing what those things are. And so we know that there's this chasm, there's this brokenness that needs to be fixed. And so the message of living your truth, you know, without the reconciliation of a sinful human to a holy God, that's a recipe for disaster, and I think we're seeing that play out in the chaos of our culture right now.

Jennifer Rothschild: "Chaos" is such a good word. And that, by the way, was a great answer.

So you mentioned some of those lies again, so let's swing back to these lies. Because you described them as lies that make us feel anxious, exhausted. And my very favorite, self-obsessed, because I see that so much and I can go there quickly. I mean, we all can. So tell us what some of those lies are -- because you've already kind of mentioned them, but remind us -- and then what do we do about it?

Alisa Childers: Right. Well, let me mention a couple here that I think kind of tie together. So there's a big slogan in culture, and it's "You Are Enough." Right? And I get it. Like, I get that that's the thing you want to say to somebody. If they're really down on themselves and they've got a low self-esteem and they don't see themselves in the way that God sees them, it can be so tempting to say, you know, "You're perfect just as you are. You are enough. Just trust that."

But the problem with that -- I tell the story in the book of when I gained 80 pounds in my first pregnancy and I -- you know, turns out, surprise, my daughter didn't weigh 80 pounds. So I came home from the hospital with all this extra weight, and it was really, honestly, physically exhausting, it was painful. And then my daughter -- I've talked with her about this and she's okay with me sharing this. But as a baby, you know, she had a birth trauma. So there was a lot of discontent in her, and it just seemed like there was nothing I could do to help her to stop crying. And I just couldn't meet her needs and everything was falling apart. And I remember going to the mall, because I thought -- you know, I had this brilliant idea that maybe she would like to be put into a stroller and walked around the mall. And I can assure you she did not enjoy that. And so I just remember sitting down on this bench, exasperated and thinking, you know, is this ever going to get better? Is my life ever going to feel normal again, because I am failing miserably. And so that was sort of this moment for me. But years later, I came across a blog post that said, "To every exhausted mom out there, you are enough." And I just remember back to that moment thinking, if somebody would have come up to me and said that to me, I probably would have wanted to punch them in the face, because honestly, I knew that I wasn't enough. I knew deep in my bones that I could not fix this problem all by myself.

And I think, Jennifer, that's the exhaustion and the anxiety that we place on people when we tell them, you know, "You're enough." It sounds good, it sounds like the right thing to say, but ultimately what we're telling them is that you have to be the solution to all of your problems. You have to do that all by yourself. And that's a great burden that we put on people.

So the answer we talk about in the book is that when we realize we're sinners, when we realize we're actually not enough, but we realize there is someone who is enough, Jesus, who lived a perfectly sinless life. Actually was the perfect human, right? And then the Bible talks about when we trust in him, his righteousness is imputed to us. So I like to use the word "enoughness," right? So when God sees us, we are not enough. But when we are in Christ, his enoughness gets put on us like a garment. So when God looks at us, he sees the enoughness of Christ. And Christ is better than we'll be anyway, ever could be, right? So that's an even better deal.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, yes, yes.

Alisa Childers: And that's tied in with other lies. Like, there's another lie I talk about in the book where you are the boss of you, right? You're the captain of your ship. You need to figure out what your dreams are, chase those dreams. Never give up, kick down the doors, break the windows, crawl through the side. You know, just get into your dreams and don't give up. And I think that's a lie that causes a lot of anxiety and exhaustion. Because if we determine what those dreams are, you know, out of maybe the sinful inclinations of our hearts, we might be chasing a dream that is not what God has for us.

And the messaging and culture, the hustle culture, all this stuff would tell you just never give up, never give up. But, you know, sometimes the best thing you can do -- and this is going to sound countercultural to people. But sometimes the best thing you can do is give up on your dreams. Because it might not be a holy dream, it might not be what God has for you. It might be something that's born out of your selfish ambition.

And so I think that the better truth is to live in submission to Christ. Live as a God glorifier no matter where God places you, whether you're a stay-at-home mom or corporate executive. Wherever God puts you, you glorify him in that situation. And that's a much more freeing and less anxious way to live, because then you let him determine what those dreams are and then it's not all on your shoulders. And I think that's ultimately what the anxiety and all the chaos that these sort of messages of culture cause us, is because it's really placing the burden on to ourselves to fix all the problems that we probably created in the first place.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Right? What you just described too is such a concise way of looking at how we feel and what we observe in our culture. It's almost frenetic. It's almost like in my desire to say I'm enough, you are enough, we are intuitively aware that is not true. So we keep trying to satisfy the lie with another lie, with another lie, with another lie. Man, that's good.

So tell me -- we're good at managing these lies and [inaudible] them. But where do they come from in the first place, and who is it that is propagating this narrative?

Alisa Childers: Right. So the who is -- let me give you a little backstory to the book. Because my first book was interacting with the movement of progressive Christianity. That was the scenario in which my faith was really challenged, and I went through a really intense faith crisis not knowing -- man, not even knowing if God existed. And so I did years of study to try to figure out what the truth was. So my first book was more of a theological memoir. So it's not an academic book at all, but it was a little bit more -- what should I say? -- systematic, maybe, in the way that I approached the theology.

But at the same time in the progressive Christian movement, I noticed that, you know, just like in any movement, you've got your scholars, you've got your lay people, you've got your influencers. But it was largely the influencers, maybe -- you know, in particular females, who had big, massive social media platforms, they were writing books, and all of them -- and they were kind of marketing themselves as Christians, but all of the messaging was just like the lies that are in the book.

And so I think ultimately if I really trace back where this book was inspired from, it was a blog post that I had written that actually went viral. It was my first blog post that went, like, massively viral, like, viewed over a couple of million times, and it was my review of Rachel Hollis' book "Girl, Wash Your Face." And a lot of women were really confused by this book because Rachel Hollis was presenting herself as a Christian. She was talking about her relationship with Jesus, she was summarizing the Gospel using Scripture, but all throughout the book the message was -- in fact, she even says in the book the Gospel is that you are enough just as you are. Like, nothing needs to change.

And so a lot of Christian women, I think, were confused by this, because there were Bible studies people were doing based on this book. And I thought, you know, there's a need to talk about this, because just because something markets itself as Christian -- and, listen, I pray for Rachel Hollis. I have no animosity toward her.

Jennifer Rothschild: Sure, sure.

Alisa Childers: I actually have a heart of compassion for the lies that she's bought into. But ultimately these lies that are being promoted largely to women from these massive social media influencer-type pages, they're providing something for women, I think, that women crave, which is community, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Alisa Childers: The mom who may be in that isolated period of her life, at home with a newborn and maybe a two-year-old and she doesn't get to get out much, she can hop on Facebook and take part of a discussion or a Facebook Live and get that sense of community.

But the problem is that on so many of these platforms, these lies are just being propagated and brought into the church. And they're largely the lies that agree with culture. So the question, like, where is this coming from? I think it's coming from culture, but it's been Christianized by a lot of these social media influencer types that are so relatable. And I get that. I mean, I get wanting that sense of community. We all crave that. That's really where the church should be. But, of course, with COVID and everybody being isolated for so long, and just the chaos -- like, that's the word, right? -- chaos of our culture, a lot of times people will find that online. And that can be a very good thing, but it also can be a very dangerous thing as we see how these lies have just blossomed because of things like social media. Which I talk about in the book I really feel like we've recreated the Tower of Babel with social media. The world once again speaks one language, right? And so we saw how that worked out the first time.

And so I think that we just need to make sure as Christians that we are living the truth, that we are lining up our worldview with what Scripture says. And that's going to be antithetical to culture, but especially right now.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, and Alisa bringing that up, I mean, your Tower of Babel example is excellent. And it's good for us to hear that, because what we're hearing from you also is so don't try to alleviate your discomfort when you hear something that doesn't sound right by just agreeing with it. You're supposed to feel that discomfort. You're supposed to feel like, hmm, I don't know if that's really right. I don't know if that's really the truth. That's okay. It doesn't mean you dislike the person who's saying it, it doesn't mean you hate your neighbors and your culture, but it means you are seeking to live by the truth. And there's a freedom in that kind of humility also. This is super good. Alisa. I am highly recommending your book. And unfortunately I have to get to the last question, and so that's why we need to read your book also, because I can tell, girl, you got a lot more to say.

All right. But here's the last question. We really do want to be grounded in objective truth. That's the women we want to be. So what disciplines or what practices do you recommend for staying grounded in this very relative and unreliable cultural moment in which we live?

Alisa Childers: Well, thank you for that question. The first thing I would say -- I'm going to give you two things here. Number one -- and this is going to be so simple, but it's something we forget. But we have to be in the Word. We have to be in the Bible. The levels of biblical illiteracy are massive. Jennifer, when I was going through my faith crisis, I did not have an intellectual faith. I didn't know all the intellectual arguments, I didn't know a lot about church history, I just didn't know a lot of stuff. But what I did know is the Bible. I had read the Bible my whole life. And so when clever arguments from a skeptic were brought in and the Bible was twisted or taken out of context or misquoted, that's when I was able to go, you know, I'm going to start questioning some of the other things that are being said, because I know they're not reading the Bible correctly. Know the Word. I think that is just the biggest thing I could tell women, is just be in the Word, even if it's a little bit every day. And thankfully we live in a digital age, so we are not constrained to just paper Bibles. I mean, we can listen to the Bible while we're doing dishes or while we're cooking and -- there's so many options for us today. But be the Word is number one.

And the second one is -- this might be surprising for some people, but I really think it's important that we study critical thinking, just basic logic. Our world and our culture is so illogical. And God gave us the laws of logic, right? I have both of my kids -- we're home-schooling this year, and both of them are doing critical thinking as one of their electives. We are looking at logical fallacies. We're learning to spot bad reasoning; we're learning what the nature of truth is. What is truth? How do we determine what's true?

I think that there has maybe never been a time -- at least for sure in this country, there's never been a time where it's been more important that we as women, and to help other people around us, study logic and critical thinking. Because God is the God of logic, and Satan is the father of lies. And you know one of the methods he uses a lot to get people to believe lies is bad logic, bad reasoning, emotional arguments, things that don't make sense, they don't line up. And just a basic study of critical thinking can be a huge, huge buffer. That's half the battle, I think, these days.

K.C. Wright: It boils down to knowing the Word and staying in the Word. The Word is truth, and it is our only and ultimate source of truth. I don't know where the psalm is, but there's a psalm that says we want to hear it, receive it, love it and obey it. Love that.

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm sure that is somewhere tucked in Psalm 119 --

K.C. Wright: Maybe.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- you know?

K.C. Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: But it's true, you heard that, we do need to know the Word. And you can listen to it. I always tell you about my favorite Bible app for staying in the Word and knowing the truth. It's Dwell, Dwell Bible app. And we will have a link to it on the show notes so that you can get a free trial, or you can go straight to 413podcast.com/dwell.

K.C. Wright: And on the show notes we can also hook you up with Alisa's book. In fact, you can win one. Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

K.C. Wright: Go to Jennifer's Insta profile. She's simply @jennrothschild. You gotta go there, you got to follow. Daily inspiration. Heart pounding stuff right there. It's a beautiful Instagram to follow. And we'll have a link to get there at the show notes at 413podcast.com/223. That's 413podcast.com/223. And, of course, you can read the whole transcript right there just for you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yep. And I will also have a link there to a resource that can help you grow in critical thinking and logic, as Alisa recommended. You can tell I really loved this conversation. And K.C. and I, we really love you.

K.C. Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: We're so grateful for you. Thanks for being a 4:13er. And so if you haven't followed the podcast officially yet, please do it. And please leave a review, if you've not yet done that. It really does matter. That's what K.C. and I want for Christmas, we want podcast reviews.

K.C. Wright: Yeah. We haven't had one for a while.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know. So until next week, our people, you got plenty of time to review the podcast. Okay?

And remember, whatever you face and however you feel, remember you can know the truth and you can ditch the lies, because you can do all things through Christ, who gives you strength. I can.

K.C. Wright: I can.

Jennifer and K.C.: And you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, K.C., I have just started Christmas shopping. Just now.

K.C. Wright: Just now?

Jennifer Rothschild: Just now, yeah.

K.C. Wright: It's okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know. But first thing on my list is Lucy gets a new sweater. Yeah. Hers is worn out.

K.C. Wright: Well, I love the one she rocks currently. It says, "I'm a lover, not a fighter."