4:13 Podcast: Can I Combine Faith and Therapy for Emotional Healing? With Anthony Evans and Stacy Kaiser [Episode 228]

Anthony Evans: I got to a place -- and Stacy helped me get out of this place -- where I became a victim to my own compassion. I became a victim to -- I wouldn't couple -- the verses about forgiveness and 70 times 7 and all that stuff, I wouldn't couple that with "Guard your heart for it's the wellspring of life." Like, I would just be forgiving, forgiving, forgiving, but not setting up boundaries to guard my heart. You know? And so that was a -- I had to get to the place where I was like, Anthony, setting up parameters and boundaries in your life does not mean you are not doing what the Bible says as related to forgiving. The Lord said -- he never said forgive and let them do it again.

Jennifer Rothschild: The power of faith is intersecting with the practicality of therapy on today's episode of the 4:13 Podcast. No one is immune from life's difficulties, yet many Christians are very hesitant to talk about their mental health, or even seek professional help when they're struggling.

Well, today you are going to get a practical path to travel when you are struggling with anxiety or depression or just any of those issues that might trip you up. You're going to learn how to manage difficult emotions biblically, you're going to discover the power of gratitude on your mental health, and you're going to know when it is time to find a therapist. So today, producer, artist, and author Anthony Evans, along with licensed therapist Stacy Kaiser, will introduce you to a winning combination when faith meets therapy. So let's go.

K.C. Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, this is Jennifer, here to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you live the "I Can" life of Philippians 4:13. K.C. and I are so glad you are with us. It is just two friends right here smooshed in the closet. We're talking about one great topic today, and there is zero stress.

K.C. Wright: Zero.

Jennifer Rothschild: So take a deep breath, let it all out.

K.C. Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Because we are going to talk some good stuff today. And in this conversation, you're going to hear how practical we can approach mental health. And it involves our physical health too, our people.

K.C. Wright: Uh-oh.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so I know some of you, this is a new year and you're working hard to try to do some -- you know, make some good choices with your health. Really proud of you about that.

K.C. Wright: Mm-hmm. Just so you know, on Ellie's 12th birthday in August, I committed finally to getting healthy myself. And I think it just starts when you wake up one morning and you look in the mirror and you go, "What have I become?"

Jennifer Rothschild: Exactly.

K.C. Wright: And I did not like the way I looked, I did not like the way I felt, and so I committed -- I invested into some big-time training at a gym. And praise the Lord, I've lost some weight.

Jennifer Rothschild: Good for you.

K.C. Wright: I have a goal of seeing my abs before I die. I believe they're there, just like I believe heaven exists. I haven't seen heaven, nor my abs since I've been a teenager, but I'm on my way.

Jennifer Rothschild: But you know they're there.

K.C. Wright: But I'm telling you, it's changed everything.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. That's really impressive.

K.C. Wright: And I want to encourage someone listening this morning that maybe you're on that same road that I'm on right now and you're trying to get healthy because you want to be there for your family and you want to be healthy just because it's the wise thing to do. And the Bible tells us to buffet our body, not buffet it. Okay?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

K.C. Wright: But there's a sign in my gym that says, "Keep Showing Up." And half the battle for me was just walking in the front door.

Jennifer Rothschild: Just showing up. Yeah, yeah.

K.C. Wright: Right. Because everybody else is fit. You kind of want to tell them, "Hey, y'all are done." Like --

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. Move on. (Laughs)

K.C. Wright: You guys have completed the process -- can you leave? This is for us now -- okay? -- the fluffy ones. (Laughs) But the sign says "Keep Showing Up," and so I would just keep showing up and...

Anyway, I've never loved and hated something so much --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, I bet, K.C.

K.C. Wright: -- in all my life. But I'm so proud that I'm still in it to win it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, yeah, because it's been over four months now. That's pretty impressive.

K.C. Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow. Well, let me ask you this. This was the hardest thing for me. Were you able to slay or conquer the white devil, aka sugar?

K.C. Wright: Yeah. What has helped me just slay the white sugar is things like having a bag of frozen blueberries in my freezer. You can get around it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Yeah, you can.

K.C. Wright: And now I don't want it.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's good. Well, you do lose your craving for it. In fact, I think it's Lysa TerKeurst who said you don't eat what you crave, you crave what you eat. So if you can get over the hump.

K.C. Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Well, and I will say, you know -- I mean, studies have shown, too, that when you start to get physically healthy and your brain chemistry gets better and your serotonin is flowing, I mean, you are going to feel physically, emotionally, mentally better.

K.C. Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: And the truth is, we can do all things through Christ.

K.C. Wright: It's true.

Jennifer Rothschild: It is through his power.

K.C. Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: In fact, near the end of this conversation, that's one of the questions I ask Anthony, about making these choices and do we have the actual power to do it. So y'all want to stay for the end of this conversation and hear, because they're going to give us some good stuff.

You probably know who Anthony Evans is, but you may not have met Stacy Kaiser yet. So, K.C., let's introduce our friends.

K.C. Wright: Yeah. First Anthony Evans. He is one of Christian music's premier worship leaders and singer-songwriters. He has released ten solo projects, two of which debuted at number one on Billboard's top gospel album charts. He released the book "Unexpected Places," produced numerous music videos, acted in three movies, and performed as Beast in the Disney Hollywood Bowl production of Beast and the --

Jennifer Rothschild: Beauty and the Beast.

K.C. Wright: Beauty and the Beast.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's funny.

K.C. Wright: Anthony received his first Grammy nomination for his executive production work on the gospel album "My Tributes." He has worked with his father, beloved pastor, Dr. Tony Evans; his sisters, Bible teacher Priscilla Shire and podcaster Chrystal Evans Hurst. And the two of them are wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love both of them. I love his whole family.

K.C. Wright: I love his whole family. Dr. Tony Evans is one of my favorite Bible teachers.

Anyway, you may have seen him on NBC's The Voice. But today, my friend, he is an honorary 4:13, and we are so honored to have him.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, we are.

K.C. Wright: Now, Stacy Kaiser is a Southern California gal-based psychotherapist. She's a relationship expert, she's a media personality, and author of "How to Be a Grown Up."

Jennifer Rothschild: It's a great title.

K.C. Wright: Boy, you give that as a gift, you're really speaking some volumes and picking a fight.

Anyway, she's been with hundreds of -- on television appearances across the nation on some major networks, including -- you may have seen her on NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN, and HLN. Stacy has built a strong reputation for offering thoughtful and sound insight to a wide range of topics. She's a regular parenting expert on the Today Show and Good Morning America, and she's a regular guest expert on Steve Harvey and The Doctors talk shows.

Jennifer Rothschild: Man, she's a busy woman.

K.C. Wright: I'm exhausted talking about this woman. I really wish she'd get a vision for her life and do something.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know. Bless her heart.

K.C. Wright: And today guess what? She is also a 4:13er.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

K.C. Wright: I don't know where she even squeezed in a minute for us.

So buckle up, buttercups. This is going to be so good.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. Let's start, Stacy and Anthony, with how you guys met. I am curious. We all want to know what brought you guys together.

Anthony Evans: Well, Stacy is a media personality and also a therapist. And I happened to be sitting down on my couch watching TV, and I was at a place in my life and my career where I was like, "I need help." And I needed help -- this is specific to me. I needed help from somebody who wasn't in the center of my world. So me going to any church in America and sitting down and talking to somebody, I immediately would feel, like, kind of stressed out because I knew that they would know my family, I knew that they -- so I didn't have a blank slate kind of situation. So I saw Stacy and was like, I love the answer she just gave, and I'm going to be a creep and look at the credits of this TV show and see if this lady and her staff will believe that I'm not crazy and see me. And she happened to have an opening in her schedule, which she rarely does, and that was six years ago now.

And we met, because, you know, therapy always kind of -- it's like friendship. You have to figure out does this person work for me? And so we met, and it worked, and now we're here with you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, clearly it worked.

Stacy Kaiser: And these days we call it divine intervention.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and look at this, it led to a book. So clearly the relationship brought flourishing to both of you; met some needs, obviously, for you, Anthony; and now you guys have this message, which I'm just thrilled by, because now you're taking what happened just between you guys in therapy and you're able to translate it and meet greater needs. I love how God does that. He's so efficient. He is so efficient.

Stacy Kaiser: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: So, Anthony, let me ask you this. I know in your book you have suggested that the church, the evangelical church especially, maybe has not always been the safest place for people who are struggling with mental health. And I know that's not a statement of judgment. I know that you're saying that to shed light on this. So tell me why you think that is.

Anthony Evans: I think -- in general, I would say I think that the church hasn't been the safest place for mental health in the same way an algebra class isn't the safest place for somebody who has a learning disability. Like, if that disability isn't acknowledged, then that class becomes not a safe place because of the pace that it's moving and because of how that issue with them is not acknowledged.

I think that -- this isn't a blanket statement about the church in general, but there are some moments where it's almost like you feel like your faith isn't working if you can't keep up. And I put "keep up" in air quotes. Like, if you can't just keep up and understand the principles that are being preached over that 30, 45-minute sermon, why don't you get this? Like, why is it taking you so long to get this? And I feel like that feeling in general is hard, but that feeling related to God and your faith is another level of hard. And for me, there was even another level because I'm the son of Tony Evans. This should not be hard for me. You know what I'm saying?

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah.

Anthony Evans: So, yeah, I think that we don't necessarily at first look at somebody in their scenario and ask ourselves what else is going on underneath what I am perceiving with them? And there's always a backstory, and we don't necessarily know it. And so I think empathy has been missing -- sometimes in church scenarios, empathy's missing, which makes people retreat and start pretending, which is a major problem.

Jennifer Rothschild: It is. Well, and I think even when someone who's struggling with their mental health walks into a church, even if a church person has empathy, sometimes their insecurity outweighs their empathy and they don't know how to respond. So instead of being a safe place to receive, which makes them encounter their own discomfort, they just kind of, you know, slap the happy Christian bumper sticker so we can all move forward, which is just not realistic. And so that's why, Stacy, I would ask you, as a therapist, how do you think God's Word, prayer, and therapy can work together to get us closer to better mental health?

Stacy Kaiser: Well, I actually think it's the perfect combination, and that's one of the reasons that Anthony and I wrote this book. Anthony, I can't remember where you said you've heard this, right? Isn't this about that whole -- that woman? Help me out here. There's a woman that gives a quote that you quote. Say that and then I'll finish my answer.

Anthony Evans: Okay, got it. It's a Joyce Meyer quote. I was sitting at one of her conferences and listening to her speak, and she just simply said, "Do what you can and God will do what you can't." And that's what Stacy's referring to.

Go ahead, Stacy.

Stacy Kaiser: Yes. And so to me, we're talking about the part under the do-what-you-can umbrella. And there's a lot of people that I have worked with and spoken to over the years who sit around in their homes praying and saying, Why haven't I found a relationship? Why aren't I in a better job? Why don't I feel better about myself? And my answer to them is it's because you've just been sitting around. You need to take some action. And a lot of times people don't know exactly what action to take.

First of all, oftentimes even the wisest of us are great at giving advice to other people, but not to ourselves. And secondly, a lot of times we get so wrapped up on what is going on emotionally, or we just don't even have the tools because we weren't trained with the tools, so we don't know what to do. And that's where I come in.

And so as a therapist, I believe it's important to sort of meet my clients where they are, which is respecting their faith, respecting who they are as human beings, and literally giving them practical tools that they haven't thought of to get out of whatever issue or to grow in any way. And that is literally what our book "When Faith Meets Therapy" is. It's a book that gives practical tools in different categories. So some people will read this and probably think, I don't even need to go to therapy because the tools are right here.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Well, that's fantastic. And faith is practical, so it can translate therapeutically beautifully because the Bible is so practical.

So let's do just a little therapy right here. Okay? So negative or destructive self-talk, as I like to call it, it can really sabotage us. So why don't you just take a minute here to coach us as to how to interrupt those destructive thoughts. And I'm curious, in your opinion, can we actually really control our thoughts and change our thinking? And, of course, I want Stacy's perspective. And then, Anthony, if you've dealt with this, I want to know.

Anthony Evans: Absolutely.

Stacy Kaiser: So my answer is yes, we can control our thoughts and impact that. And you are 100% right, what you think impacts how you feel and how you behave. And because we're with ourselves 365 days a year, seven days a week, 24 hours a day, we hear ourselves all the time. And when you're talking to yourself in a negative or destructive or unhealthy way, you hear it, and it can impact your self-esteem and cause depression and anxiety and all kinds of things. So this is sort of the basic thing that I tell people. You can't have two thoughts at the same time.

So you could be thinking, do I want pizza or a salad, salad or a pizza? But those thoughts take -- you know, go back and forth. And so if you start to infuse your mind with positive thoughts, you can't think negative ones. And that's where affirmations come in, of saying things to yourself like, "I can do this," or, "I'm going to be okay," or, "I'm going to reach out to friends and family or a counselor or people who can help me so that I can get through this." So it's about literally starting to replace the negative thoughts with the positive ones.

Jennifer Rothschild: Anthony, did you have to go through that process?

Anthony Evans: Yes. I've had to go through that and many processes. But, yes, that was one of them. And I believe for a while, whatever narrative felt natural to me was always the narrative that I would follow, because I didn't realize that I had the power to take back that narrative. And this is coming from a worship leader, preacher's kid. Like, I just had moments, being the artistic, creative, emotional soul, where my emotions would take the lead, and I had to get to a place where -- I used to say a verse to myself, and if the verse didn't work immediately, I was over it. You know what I mean?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. Right.

Anthony Evans: As opposed to reprogramming my mind, and then that starts to reprogram my feet. And then after my feet are reprogrammed, your feelings will start -- well, your feelings will follow your feet. Like, I used to try to get my feelings in place first and then walk that way, as opposed to walking that way and understanding that your feelings will follow your feet.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, that's good. Well, and what both of you just described, I think we all need to hear very clearly, is a process. It's not one and done; it's a process. And it's important we follow these processes because, you know, let's be honest, sometimes it feels easier just to avoid all this. Like, to sit on the couch, Anthony, watching the therapist, that you think, oh, wow, she might be able to help me, and just go, oh, never mind, it's too overwhelming.

So what risks do we run if we avoid our pain or our grief, or whatever it is, for too long? Like, how does it affect us and how does it affect our people?

Stacy Kaiser: There is this saying -- and we talk about it a lot in the book -- is that hurting people can hurt people. And so if you are not in a good emotional place, if you're not humming along in a life that makes you happy, then odds are there's going to be a ripple effect. First of all, it's going to affect you. And when we're not doing well, it actually makes our mental health worse. There's also a lot of research that says it lowers our immune system, and so oftentimes we can even get physically sicker. But when a person isn't in a good emotional space, they treat the people around them differently as well. So we might be more short tempered, we might be less compassionate. It can even impact productivity with work or parenting and all kinds of stuff like that. And so it becomes really important to put yourself in a good space.

And then the other thing I want to say is as we therapists, we look at things in a system way, like we look at a whole system. And if one person changes, it can change a whole system. So you doing better and feeling better can actually be a ripple effect in the positive way. You know, your smile can be more contagious, your compassion for others can be better. And from a faith perspective, it certainly allows you to be more of service when your tank is filled up and you're feeling good.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Yeah.

Well, Anthony, do you have anything you'd like to add to that?

Anthony Evans: No. It's hard to go after Stacy because she's --

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I would agree. I would totally agree. Well said. Okay.

So, Anthony, in the book you actually say that Christians are supposed to be tolerant and forgiving. Okay? But where is the line between grace and enabling somebody to treat you badly? So kind of unpack that question that you ask in the book.

Anthony Evans: Yeah. I think that -- like you said, I got to a place -- and Stacy helped me get out of this place -- where I became a victim to my own compassion. I became a victim to -- I wouldn't couple forgive -- the verses about forgiveness and 70 times 7 and all that stuff, I wouldn't couple that with "Guard your heart for it's the wellspring of life." Like, I would just be forgiving, forgiving, forgiving, but not setting up boundaries to guard my heart. You know? And so that was a -- I had to get to the place where I was like, Anthony, setting up parameters and boundaries in your life does not mean you are not doing what the Bible says as related to forgiving. The Lord said -- he never said forgive and let them do it again. You know what I mean?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right, right.

Anthony Evans: I have had to get to that place where I have taken steps back, set up boundaries for myself and stayed true to my faith, but at the same time stayed true to me so I don't keep re-injuring myself.

And the question you asked before -- now my brain circled back. I think going around with unaddressed issues, even in this area, is like -- as dangerous as having a sprained ankle and never getting it addressed and trying to walk without a limp. Ultimately you can start doing damage that's irreparable damage because you have not addressed the issue when it first happened. And I think that happens a lot in our faith in all areas when we allow things to continue on as related to negative experiences.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, it does. It creates all sorts of extra issues that we didn't intend. And as you guys have both just talked about, they tend to show up in our relationships, and so let's move to that relationship.

Stacy, I know in the book you provide seven keys for healthy relationships. So I know we don't have time for all seven, but why don't you give us, you know, maybe the top three, if there are a top three.

Stacy Kaiser: I mean, to be honest, they're all really, really important. But I would say that -- I'll sort of hit a couple that I think are really foundational when it comes to relationships. And the first one of that is really the importance of respect. You know, treating each other with respect is something that we all need to do. We need to be considerate of another person's feelings, and we want them to be considerate of our feelings. And it's about conscious respect.

And then I think a second one that's really important is that a quality relationship really is marked by loyalty and trust. If you can't trust a person, how can you feel comfortable with them? How can you relax and enjoy their company? And so to me, those two are very, very important.

And then I would say if I had to pick a third, it would be that you -- when you're in a relationship, you want to be with somebody who makes you feel like you're a priority, and that is with time and love and energy and attention. And oftentimes I find that some of the most unhappy people are people who feel like they've been neglected by a partner.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Yeah, it's easier to be lonely when you're not in a relationship than it is to be lonely right in the middle of one. That's hard.

Stacy Kaiser: Absolutely. I mean, I think that's a really good point. I always say that if you're in the illusion of a relationship, it's more painful, because you know in a relationship you're supposed to feel special and important and adored. And when you don't feel that, but there's a person standing there, it's harder than if you're just by yourself where you can go meet your own needs.

Jennifer Rothschild: It is harder. Well, this is the importance, too, of how you all are marrying faith and therapy, because all those things that you mentioned, all these principles, are biblical principles. And to be able to work them out in our real lives, even through therapy, is such an important thing.

I would be curious both of your opinions on this. You know, we hear all this -- and I know there's some Type A listeners right now, they are writing so fast because they want to get down all these great -- y'all are dropping some great truth bombs. And by the way, this will be on the show notes. But they recognize these are some needs and these are some solutions, and so now, as soon as the podcast ends, I'm going to read my notes and I'm going to do the thing. Okay? And then they realize, wait a minute, I don't know if I can do all this, I'm feeling overwhelmed, and it can reveal how powerless we feel and, in some ways, how powerless we are. So my question to both of you is, do we actually possess the power to fix all this and to deal with this all on our own?

Anthony Evans: I don't think that we have it necessarily on our own, but we have the power to take steps in the direction. And the quote that Stacy brought up earlier, we have the power to do what we can and trust that God will do what we can't. That's what we have the power to do. We have the power to do what we can and trust that God's faithful and trust that he doesn't break his promises. And if you put those two together, then the answer to your question is yes, because he's given us the power through him for him to complete these equations that are hard in our lives as related to relationships or forgiveness or grief or whatever the case may be.

Jennifer Rothschild: Stacy?

Stacy Kaiser: In this moment, I'm agreeing with Anthony.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Stacy Kaiser: Now you've left me speechless.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love it.

Stacy Kaiser: I think that's very well said.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, I agree. I think of Ephesians 3, the same power that raised Jesus from the dead, it is in us to make us capable. Even if it's just one step, yeah.

All right. I could listen to y'all for so long, and I know that this is another reason why our listeners need your book. Because we just get to spend plenty of time with you, but we're going to have to go to our last question. So in your book, you write about how gratitude is a game changer when it comes to our mental health. So I would love for you to tell us why that is and then give us some very practical ways that we can practice gratitude.

Anthony Evans: Well, I can start that. Because as Stacy -- the practical ways -- even in the book, the way it's laid out, is Stacy at the end of each chapter gives the reader practical steps to take. So it's not you're just reading. It's like, now I can go do this. So I'll let her do that here -- or I want her to do that here for the sake of the listeners.

So in my case, when me and Stacy have dealt with gratitude, it just changes my perspective. It doesn't change the circumstance, but it changes my perspective in such a way where I feel hopeful, and that hope leads me to actually -- now I feel like I could actually take the steps to becoming better, like, that just change in perspective.

My dad would take me to get shots when I was a kid, and I would scream and freak out until Dr. Denny opened the candy drawer. It didn't change the fact that I was going to get a shot, but it changed my perspective on what I was getting in spite of the pain. And I literally would stop crying and just want my Ring Pop and forget about the fact that I was getting a shot. Not fully forget, but -- you know, that is what gratitude does, it changes your perspective off of the scenario. Not that it's still not there, but it gets you hopeful about what you do have so that you can get out of your emotions and take the correct steps.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh. Okay. So if gratitude is like opening the candy drawer and changing your perspective, what's a practical way to do so on a daily basis? Like, what's a habit we could develop, Stacy, with gratitude?

Stacy Kaiser: Yeah. Well, I'm going to recommend that everyone start with two habits. One is that you want to get out your phone, a notebook, a journal and make a list of everything in your life that you're grateful for. It could be everything from your faith, something big like your faith, to something small like, I have really long eyelashes. It doesn't matter what it is, but the longer the list, the better. Because when you're in a bad place, being able to go through that list can actually help lift your mood.

And then the second thing that I like to recommend to everybody incorporates also something for the self and something for others, which I think is important, and that is to commit to expressing gratitude to yourself and others on a daily basis. It's about thanking people, it's about saying, "I appreciate you," it's about saying, "You're just a wonderful person in my life." And then when it comes to ourselves, I think it's really nice to either wake up in the morning or to go to bed at night, or both, and to think about things that you're grateful about in terms of yourself. That you're grateful that you're a good person or that you listened to this wonderful podcast today and you got something out of it. It's about infusing positivity on a regular basis.

Jennifer Rothschild: And why does gratitude work?

Stacy Kaiser: Gratitude works because it shifts the focus to positivity in our lives, and especially in times where things are really tough. So you may not be in a bad place, but maybe the world around you is really difficult or you're worried about a friend. We spend so much time in our minds and hearts thinking about all of that stuff that this actually forces us to pause and think about the things that are good in our world to give us energy to move forward and start the next day.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, therapy has officially ended. Thank you. This was fantastic, you two.

Anthony Evans: Thank you so much for having us on.

Stacy Kaiser: Thank you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, our people, it is all about what we dwell on. So let's be people who dwell well.

K.C. Wright: Yes. And I want to highlight just a couple of things that hit me hard. Anthony said gratitude changes your perspective on a situation. The situation may not change, but your perspective will. And I want to mention those two habits from Stacy. First, make a list of everything you are grateful for; and secondly, commit to expressing gratitude to yourself and others on a daily basis.

Jennifer Rothschild: Good.

K.C. Wright: So who can you thank today, you know? I like to say that a thankful heart is a magnet for miracles.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's good.

K.C. Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, my list is really long of who I can say thank you to today and be grateful for. And I will include this podcast on my list too, because it was really good and practical.

So, our people, you need their book, or you know, somebody who does. It's a great resource, so check it out. We will have a link to it at the show notes at 413podcast.com/228. And we're also, of course, going to have a full transcript of this whole conversation there also.

All right. You know we love you so much and we're so thankful that you've hung out with us today. We cannot wait to be together with you next week. So until then, remember that whatever you face or however you feel, you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

K.C. Wright: I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: And you can.

K.C. Wright: You can.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, you can.

All right. That was some good stuff. Therapy is officially over.

K.C. Wright: Yes, so good.