4:13 Podcast: Can I Chase Whimsy and Love My Life? With Bob Goff [Episode 345]

Bob Goff: When you think of this idea of whimsy in your faith, whimsy in your family, whimsy in the workplace, that it's not just going through the steps and doing what is expected, but that it's that extra, it's the twinkle in your eye that says, I think there could be more here. It's getting your head on a swivel and starting to see the people and the things that are happening around you, start seeing your lived experiences as these on-ramps to greater opportunities to jump into people's lives and connect with them.

Jennifer Rothschild: On this episode of The 4:13, we will learn what it means to chase whimsy, because we can't catch what we don't chase. Best-selling author Bob Goff is going to take you on a journey into the uplifting, inspiring, and unexpected possibilities waiting for you every single day. With his trademark storytelling and winsome take on life, Bob Goff is going to help you leave behind the fruitless cycles of planning and floundering and instead wake you up to the curiosity, delight, and possibility in your one amazing life.

So what in the world are we waiting for? KC, let's start this thing.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: We're so happy you're here. I am Jennifer, and my goal, along with KC, is to help you be and do more than you even feel capable of as you're living this "I Can" life along with us. Philippians 4:13 tells us it's true that we can do all things, and the two most important words of that verse are "through Christ." It's his power in us that allows us to be who God has created us to be and live fully in that identity. So let's do it, 4:13ers.

So KC and I are just hanging out in the closet again. It smells like coffee.

KC Wright: Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's all good in the hood this morning.

KC Wright: Yes. Hey, I got to tell you a story. Remember those red chairs you gave me?

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah.

KC Wright: I --

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, let me just pause.

KC Wright: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: One of the best things about our relationship is when I get tired of something, I can give it to KC and I feel no guilt. And Phil does not care, he's like, "Oh, yeah, give it to KC, KC needs it."

KC Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: Instead of like, "Oh, no, Jennifer, don't buy something new," he's like, "Oh, no, give it to KC."

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So, yes, I gave you some red leather recliners.

KC Wright: And I'm so thankful because, you know --

Jennifer Rothschild: And they're cool looking.

KC Wright: Years ago we discussed if it's KC or Goodwill --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: -- always choose KC.

Jennifer Rothschild: Always choose KC.

KC Wright: Because I'll receive it or --

Jennifer Rothschild: You'll give it.

KC Wright: I know someone who needs it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

KC Wright: Anyway, she gave me two red leather chairs for my living room. And I got them at separate times. But finally they're both in my living room, and it matches perfectly.

Jennifer Rothschild: Good.

KC Wright: I kept thanking her and telling her, "No, this time I need to pay you. I need to pay you," and she wouldn't even think about it. But I had never sat in them; I had only moved them in.

Jennifer Rothschild: You just looked at them?

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, uh-huh.

KC Wright: So my very first night of having them, I went and plopped down with a big bowl of popcorn.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, no.

KC Wright: And I put a movie on, that I never have time to sit and watch a movie, and I was so excited and I plopped down. Well, I plopped down a little bit too hard --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, no.

KC Wright: -- and these chairs, they're swivel.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. They swivel and kind of recline and rock.

KC Wright: Right. It threw me backwards --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, no.

KC Wright: -- right into my fireplace. And it did not hurt at. I just laid there laughing, and my laughter turned to snorting. And I would have given anything -- I have outside security cameras, but in that moment, if I could have had one camera inside, I would have gone viral, because I plopped and rolled and just laid there and laughed.

Jennifer Rothschild: Covered with popcorn.

KC Wright: I would have given anything for you to see it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh, that's hilarious.

KC Wright: It was so funny.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, but did you break the chair or your --

KC Wright: No. No, the chairs are fine.

Jennifer Rothschild: And no bones? And no bones were broken?

KC Wright: Just bounce back.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, that's hilarious. Yeah, I should have told you, those are very --

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- responsive chairs. That's what I'll call them, responsive.

KC Wright: Yes. They swivel all the way around and you can lean back. Oh. Yeah, you can recline in them. They're recliners.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: There's a little lever on the side, your feet go up. But they will also throw you backwards.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Well, if you sit down with the vigor and excitement that you did.

KC Wright: Uh-huh, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: KC, you do everything big.

KC Wright: Oh, may.

Jennifer Rothschild: You do everything big, and that is proof of it.

KC Wright: But landing in the fireplace was hysterical.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, it wasn't lit, though, right?

KC Wright: No.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Thank you, Lord.

KC Wright: There is a protective guard.

Jennifer Rothschild: Golly. Man, I had no idea my chairs were so hazardous to your health. I will make sure that I insure the things I give you next. Which, by the way, when this podcast is done, I got a box for you upstairs.

KC Wright: Woo-hoo!

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. Let's get to Bob Goff.

KC Wright: All right. Bob Goff is the New York Times best-selling author of "Love Does," "Everybody Always," and "Dream Big," and many, many other books. I'm a huge fan. He is a lover of balloons, cake pops, and helping people pursue their big, big dreams. Bob's greatest ambitions in life are to love others. And he does it so well.

Jennifer Rothschild: He does.

KC Wright: He loves loving others and also do stuff. Love is a fact when love is an act. That's Bob's theme, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: And most importantly, to hold hands with his sweet wife --

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that.

KC Wright: -- sweet Maria, and spend time with their amazing family. So grab a cake pop in Bob's honor and enjoy this rich, beautiful conversation between Bob Goff and Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Bob Goff, we brag about you all the time around here because we love your work. And I'm so happy to get to talk to you and I'm so happy our people get to listen to you, because you do bring joy. So we're going to talk about whimsy today. So let's just start with that, because whimsy is a word -- it's like an SAT word -- it's not a word that everybody uses all the time, so some of us may not know exactly what it is. So let's start right there, Bob. We're going to chase it and we're going to catch it. Tell us what whimsy is.

Bob Goff: Yeah. I think if you were to look it up in a dictionary, it'd talk about being fanciful and all that. But I think of it as kind of a strategic whimsy. And strategic whimsy is this. It's not just confetti and glitter and unicorns. There's a lot of enthusiasm oftentimes at the surface, but underneath that is a mile of strategy. In other words, you know why you're doing what you're doing.

And so when you think of this idea of whimsy in your faith, whimsy in your family, whimsy in the workplace, that it's not just going through the steps and doing what is expected, but that it's that extra -- it's the twinkle in your eye that says, I think there could be more here. It's getting your head on a swivel and starting to see the people and the things that are happening around you, start seeing your lived experiences as these on-ramps to greater opportunities to jump into people's lives and connect with them. So, yeah, it's all of those things. But I would say it's where strategy meets that twinkle in your eye. And it isn't just fun, like wave your arms over your head fun, but it's deeply purposeful and meaningful.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, it sounds like there's an element of joy. Like, you got to be almost a joy chaser, and whimsy becomes the path in some ways.

So you mentioned a word, curiosity. So I'm curious how curiosity is really part of chasing whimsy. Because if your eyes are straight ahead task oriented, it doesn't seem like there's much curiosity. So talk to us about what that looks like, how it's connected, and I'd love even to hear some kind of examples.

Bob Goff: Yeah, if you've seen people that look older than their chronological age -- I've always wondered why that might be. And I think where I've landed -- it could be a number of causes. But one of the things is they just don't seem to be curious anymore, that they -- that leaning forward with hope and joy and wondering why things work the way they do, that that has kind of disappeared. And I get it. Life can be hard and deliver some unexpected blows and have some really huge setbacks along the way. And yet some people tend to respond to that by taking a deeper dive and saying, what is this connected? What does this make possible? What's my next courageous step forward? They start seeing these pits that they've dug as foundations that they'll fill. That there will be a greater thing that might come out of that: greater empathy, greater opportunity.

And it isn't this up and to the right stuff. It isn't just an economic -- like, if you do this and this, then you're going to be the economic king of the hill, but that what you might have is greater depth of relationships, greater anticipation. You'll beat back some of the cynicism of the day with a newfound optimism. That you'd say, like, you know, this is definitely a hard thing to go through, and yet -- and it's what's on the other side of "and yet" what you'll be remembered for. Because people aren't going to eulogize somebody and say, yeah, they're the one that was always mad at Southwest Airlines or they're the one that was always mad that somebody didn't -- or they're the ones that always wrote the snarky social media posts. I think people are looking for that kind of lasting legacy of hope and joy and curiosity and I wonder if we can pull this off.

I just got back this last week from Uganda, where we're trying to get six giraffes to be part of this university. Not as students, but as -- we're building a giraffe habitat. Now, you'd say, like, what does that have to do with anything? But that's whimsy on four tall legs. Like, there's something really engaging about that. People will remember the university because they'll remember, isn't that the place that has the giraffes? And we wanted to just find animals that wouldn't bite and would be hard to lose, so the choice was obvious.

So what whimsy would say is this is possible, this will actually be it. And we were speaking to somebody that's kind of running the show in Uganda, and this person got so excited, they ran across I bet 80 yards -- and this person's 76 years old. They ran 80 yards, got the president of Uganda, brought him back and said, "You have got to hear about the giraffes." And I think we would have been having a business meeting up until then, talking about education and universities and all that, but we weren't. We were talking about giraffes and how to make baby giraffes and what kind of Barry White music we might need to play to make that happen.

So what I'd like you to do is to think in your life -- although there's a lot of have-tos, there's a lot of whimsy that's possible as well. Could I bring that to each area of my life. In your faith, bring that whimsy. Don't just say -- I read something in Scripture and say, "I agree with it." Take agreeing with Jesus off the table, and the only thing that will be left is either doing something about it or not. And there's no shame in that. But my mind says when I agree with somebody, that I'm doing something. And I would say, like, no, no, no. Let's go to the next step. Let's go big on this and say, okay, so what's my move? Or just decide, you know what, I'm not doing anything about that today.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. And either one is liberating and whimsical in its own way.

And you know, as you're describing that, Bob -- I love it. And obviously, you know, I'm laughing, which just even that physical experience of laughing just does make me feel better. So I thought about something -- when you were describing the giraffes, I thought, oh, my goodness, I think I chase whimsey every day and didn't realize what I was doing.

So I'm a big C.S. Lewis geek, and I just did something for C.S. Lewis Institute. And as a thank you gift, they sent me this miniature bust of C.S. Lewis' bald, craggy head. So it's sitting on my desk, and literally every morning I, like, pet him and I tell him "Good morning."

Bob Goff: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: And when I first got him, I was so happy to have him, I took him with me when I went and got ice cream. I put him in my seatbelt. And every morning -- like this morning I was like, "We are going to have a good day, Jack," and I rubbed his little bald head. What that does is it takes me from that narrow-minded, task-oriented -- it's like, no, no. Look at all the joy that is sprouting up around me. I didn't realize that's what I was doing until you described it. And it does, it brings me joy. It makes life more textured, doesn't it?

Bob Goff: Yes. Yeah. So I'm just thinking what it was at Notre Dame when they run out on to the field, they all touch something. I don't know what it is, a flag or a --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah, yeah.

Bob Goff: Something. Whatever it is. But I'm picturing those traditions, those habits, you know, why you do what you do.

I have my cell phone number in the back of a couple of million books. And I know why I'm doing what I'm doing, because what I want to do is put a high value on availability. And so I get constantly interrupted with phone calls, which is great. Now, that wouldn't be good for the next person perhaps, but it's great for me. It just reminds me -- somebody writes a country-western song about a big old dog or a big old truck, and people like it, and then they're not available anymore. Or somebody gets a big part in a movie and, again, they're just not available. They've got managers and agents and people. And then I just noticed, like, Jesus didn't have any of that. He just said, like, "Here I am." And when the disciples are trying to get everybody in a line, he's like, Help me, don't help me. Like, let all the kids come over here.

So I think what I -- that would be a real practical whimsical thing to just say, you know what? I just want to be weirdly available to people in the hopes that I'll learn more. I mean, we get this brief little time here on this marble shooting through space, so why not be available to each other? And again, that might not be for the next guy. But a whimsy in your life says, you know what? I'm going to put my cell phone number here and here and here, and then if people ever want to call -- mostly they're just calling to see if it's true. Because most people don't experience that, and so they go, "Oh, my goodness, it's true." Like, that's what I hear eight times out of every ten calls, "Oh, my goodness, I didn't think you'd answer." And then I always say, "I didn't think you'd call."

Jennifer Rothschild: So I love that. Because whimsy says, hey, that's not an interruption, that's an invitation.

Bob Goff: Yeah, bingo.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's a cool way to live.

Bob Goff: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So, Bob, this is really cool and very -- oh, my goodness. It's very inviting and for some aspirational. And so let's get really honest here. Okay. It feels fun, easy, and let's do it on the good days. You know what I mean? But then you got bad days. So, like, how can we apply the principles of whimsy when life is hard?

Bob Goff: Yeah. I think there's times where we feel misunderstood, or the actual, like, huge extension of that is somewhere you feel betrayed. And so what I'm trying to do is come up with a way to view those difficult things. And so we call it LCE around here, least creepiest explanation. Because it's easy to come up with a really creepy explanation for people's off-putting behaviors, that they're really rotten people or they just don't get it or -- these things are very dismissive. But instead, the least creepiest explanation, I'd say, number one, what's the most generous explanation for this really wonky thing that just went down? And then I say, what's the most reasonable explanation or realistic explanation for what just happened? And then I'd say finally, what's the most optimistic explanation?

So if somebody does something weird, I can say the most generous explanation is they were having a bad day. I've had a couple. I just don't call people or write them notes when I'm having a bad day.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right.

Bob Goff: I've got that filter. I've got the circuit breaker that says just kind of keep it till a better day, you'll have better words. So a generous explanation would be that. And that keeps whimsy alive. Instead of just saying what a loser, you'll just say, like, no, no, no, they're having half as many bad days as I have, they were just -- in a moment of failed judgment, they decided to put words to some of these things.

So most realistic explanation is that there's usually an element of truth in people if they kind of get up in your grill about something. There's probably something for me to be learned in there. While they may have still been working on their people skills a little bit -- as we all need to -- there might be an element of truth there. Is there an area where I can grow or learn?

And then most optimistic is maybe we'll be friends again later. So to come up with a format -- rather than calling balls and strikes -- you and I make 33,000 decisions on a normal day. When we'll wake up, will we have a coffee? Will we turn on the light? Will we not? So 33 -- it's exhausting. You don't even know -- we don't keep track of all the decisions we're making, and yet we're making them constantly. What if we lasso a couple of them and save this overlay for somebody that's kind of been difficult in our life, to say generous, realistic, optimistic. And that would be a more whimsical approach to these.

Now, there'll be some people that you just have no shelf for whatever they're doing right now. And I can think of a person that springs to mind that I just don't have a shelf or an explanation that would be kind or optimistic, but they're just -- they're kind of doing stuff. But instead of saying, "Woe is me" about that, I'm just air-gapping that relationship a little bit. I just need to create a little space between me and some of what I perceive as some crazy so that that will kind of settle down and then I can re-engage it later. But right now it's just too caustic. Like, if I engage it, it's just going to create -- there's a term -- I don't know if you've heard it -- and it's called grey rock.

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

Bob Goff: And grey rocking is to just be so bland and you're not going to emotionally incite anybody. So in a relationship, or if there's a person that's very difficult or seems very animated about something, grey rocking just means you just don't -- you just blend into the riverbed. You're just like -- they'll move on to somebody else or something else.

And so to take an idea like that -- and you don't grey rock everybody, but there might be people that are particularly unhelpful to you right now in the journey that you're on. And so to just say, I don't need to engage them, because then all of a sudden they're not going to move on, they're just going to stay up in your grill about that. And it's the people you've observed that are going back and forth on social media or on the news or something, tit for tat and all that, just -- just grey rock. You don't need to swing at every pitch.

And so having some of those mature, healthy -- what Henry Cloud would call a boundary is a really good thing to do in our lives.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know, that is so -- there's so much there. And by the way, let me just remind you, 4:13ers, we will have Show Notes and there will be a full transcript. Because some of you right now are trying so hard to start writing all this down You just enjoy the conversation and then you can review later. Because that was some good stuff you just gave right there, Bob.

And one of the things I'm reminded of, I have a person in my life -- and sometimes you cannot literally -- you know, within the boundary you still have to have proximity. So sometimes you can't just totally, like, shut the door. And one of the things I've learned to do is say, "Hmm, that's interesting. Wow, it's complicated," and then I move on. And so there's still an engagement, but I don't have to truly engage on that deep emotional level that makes everything blow up. And it's helped me.

And you know what else I love that you said, you know, when you talk about an LCE? You didn't call it an NCE, like there's a non-creepy explanation. Because sometimes there is a creepy explanation. But you're just looking for the least one. And it gives us -- you know what I love too, Bob? I mean, this gives us a sense of control. Because often we feel so tossed about by the people in the winds of life. But this gives you a sense of control. You get to control what you chase, what you pursue, and how you react.

Bob Goff: Yeah. And I would just say, at the risk of wordsmithing, that I'm thinking constantly about how can I influence something, because as a former trial lawyer, I spent all these years trying to control everything. And that can be really difficult. But if I reset, recalibrate, and say what I want to do is influence this relationship, what I want to do is influence this outcome, rather than control the outcome. Because if I feel like it's slipping away, then I get more controlling because I want to -- that's my goal, is to figure out how this thing's going to land, and instead, I just want to influence it. I'm going to tap that in the right direction, and if it goes there -- it isn't apathy, it's strategy. It's to say I'm going to exert the influence that I have to do it. And I don't mean social media influence and all that.

Jennifer Rothschild: No, I know.

Bob Goff: But to just influence an outcome, but not control it, and to feel like I don't need to own that one.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. And that's so realistic. Because we do not have control, but we do have influence. That's really good.

All right. So here's another question, then. In your opinion -- because I have been giggling as you've spoken. And clearly you're known as a storyteller and you're very humorous. So let's talk about humor. Because some people do not seem to have the gift of it, but I think we've all got it in us because -- if we're in Christ especially. So talk to us about how humor can affect our relationship with God, our connection with God, our spiritual growth. Like, is there an integration there?

Bob Goff: Yeah, I think there's something that can be said -- we laugh, we cry, and we think. That's how I spend most of my days. You laugh, you cry, you think. It's not like sobbing crying. But to bring another camera angle to a circumstance is one of the gifts we can each do -- I'm sure that's what you do on your podcast always, you just try to say, what's another camera angle on this? A different view. Maybe more engaging, more wholesome, more inviting, an idea that travels a little better.

So there's the shock jock approach where people just say shocking, offensive, seemingly bold things. And some people like that. And they like getting, you know, whatever -- the star newspaper, whatever, with some sensational aliens have landed and -- kind of stuff. So there's people that are entertained by that. But I just don't find that engaging. It just doesn't seem to travel well.

And so what I find is that humor's a great onboard to, say, just change up the conversation, change up the look at this thing through a new camera angle. And it's more joyful. It's on purpose. I just don't want everything to be super intense. And I can -- you know, I've tried death penalty cases against witch doctors in other countries for sacrificing children, so, like, I can deal with some hard stuff, and yet I don't walk around with this grimaced face. Like, I can deal with other stuff. I see a ton of joy.

And you're going to kind of find what you're looking for. Have you ever had a car -- for me, it was a '71 Volkswagen bus. And I decided I wanted a '71 Volkswagen bus. And as soon as I decided that, every third car seemed to me like it was a '71 Volkswagen bus. You kind of find what you're looking for. Has the same thing happened to you?

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, gosh, yes. In fact, I do what I call goodness grabbers. And it's when I literally start paying attention to what's the good in this, what's the good about this, what's the -- because I don't know if you know this, Bob, but I happen to be blind. So there is a lot of mental discipline that goes into sometimes me finding my own light, creating my own color, finding the good. And so I literally will find goodness grabbers. And sometimes, literally, it's just, you know, the smell of a cup of coffee. And then everywhere I go that day, I'm like, oh, I smell that coffee. Oh, that smells like Arabica beans. Oh, that smells like Robusta. Oh, that smells -- you know what I mean?

Bob Goff: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And it's a silly thing. But once you train your mind to alert to something, you do, just like the cars. My husband says that all the time. When we were going to buy a white car, he saw white cars everywhere.

Bob Goff: Yeah. That's the way. So I guess what I want to do is to say get our head on a swivel, like listening. Whatever opportunity you have to start hearing the things that matter and then making something really good out of it, making that useful. I hear stories all the time and I find myself taking notes just constantly about the best stories that are out there, and to say -- there's a buddy in town here, Lex Gillette, and he's just got such a great story to tell. He's a Paralympian, a long jumper who's blind. He's just living such an inspired life.

So I was talking to him the other day -- and I didn't even know he was in another country. He was in, like, Singapore trying out for something. And he never said. But what we decided is that we'd end up at the same place again soon. And what he's developed is a really keen sense of where he is. Like, he just knows where he is. He can give me directions when we're driving.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh. That's impressive.

Bob Goff: And you're right, speed bump in three seconds. Like, you're just crazy.

But if whimsy is your thing, I want to cultivate that. I want to start sensing it and seeing it everywhere. In the things around me, see what's possible, and just -- I'm thinking of how we can each cultivate inside of us this, like -- really go ham on this sense of engagement and what might be, and lifting our view of the world from what is to what might be possible.

Jennifer Rothschild: What an attractive way to live. And how attractive we will be to others. And it is a mindset. As I hear you talk about it, Bob, it's really a mindset. I remember during the pandemic, I was so overwhelmed. And I have a document -- my computer reads to me, and so I have this document that I always am working on. It's called my Master To-Do list. And every time I heard it, I was like wah-wah. I can't stand to hear that anymore. And so I changed it to Master Get-To-Do list and it made a difference, you know?

Bob Goff: Oh, yeah. I like it.

Jennifer Rothschild: It made a difference, it really did.

Bob Goff: Yeah. We have lists around here, we call them DIN lists, which is Do It Now.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, okay.

Bob Goff: So everything can't be on the Do It Now list. You need to be picky.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, you do.

Bob Goff: Like, you can't land all the airplanes on the same runway at the same time, because you'll have a different problem.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Bob Goff: So I love how you've organized it. And just really practical life hacks like that, those are super helpful.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Well, because it all starts in our mind. I mean -- and one of the things, too, that -- so I'm thinking of people I know that -- some of them, it's hard for them to see humor in things. And some people that I know, too, are so governed by routine that this chasing whimsy would be like -- they'd have to almost schedule it in. Let's talk about routine. Okay?

Bob Goff: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So do you have any practical ways that someone who's very routine oriented, like in a very gentle, happy way, begin to be okay with interrupting their routines and becoming a little more spontaneous and enjoying whimsy?

Bob Goff: Yeah. Maybe you have times -- certainly we each have this opportunity to go around sun and then learn more things. But what will happen is that we get so wrapped in to some of the -- there was a pamphlet in the '70s called "The Tyranny of the Urgent." So what I'm trying to do is I calendar out three years in advance what it is that I'm doing. And not with a lot of copious detail, but I just say, like, okay, so these are the times I want to just enjoy the family, so I put a line through a week, a month, whatever. I've gotten in the habit of working really hard for nine months, and then I leave for this place we have that's really isolated in Canada. The nearest neighbor is 10,000 square miles away.

So we leave and go up there for three months every year. We grow our own food, we catch our food in the rivers. You don't catch it, you don't eat it. It's kind of like that TV show "Alone," except we're way far more removed than anybody else is in that show. So that cadence of work hard and then rest hard, and starting to view rest as holy, not as like -- that rest is something to feel guilty about, but there's times of work and rest, kind of like out of Ecclesiastes. So I would do that.

And then little life hacks along the way that help me. This place, when we leave, we always freeze a glass of water in this big walk-in freezer we've got with all kinds of provisions. We freeze a glass of water and put a penny on top. And then we leave. And when we come back, if the water is frozen and the penny's on the bottom, you know what happened while you were gone. Right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Bob Goff: So that everything that looks frozen at the time, it's not frozen. Or it wasn't at one time, you need to clear that thing out.

So to come up with these little reminders along the way about checking in with yourself to say, hey, let me -- once a week I'm going to check in and see how I'm doing. Maybe if you organize your life -- like we've done this paper plate exercise where you could take a paper plate and say draw the size of the pie shape that represents I'm sleeping eight hours a night, or six or ten or whatever. It doesn't matter. Just be accurate about what it is. And then you say this is how much time I'm spending working, and then figure out what that is. And then the people that you love and your friends and the people that are closest to you, how much time are you spending with them?

And then the trick is to take that paper plate and give it to the person who knows you the best and say, "Does my paper plate look like what you think my paper plate looks like?" And it might be, like, a really great way to check in on yourself from some people who know you. Not to bust your chops, but to just say, you know, when you're answering emails, I think you're still at work, and so that pie shape is a lot bigger for work. And then you might think, oh, no, no, no, I'm not working right now, I'm just tidying up my inbox or whatever. But to get the perceptions of the people around you. So instead of saying, "How's my life working?" as people ask me from time to time -- and life always feels like it's working okay for me. There's little setbacks along the way, but pretty much working. But a better question to ask is for you and I to ask the people we love, "How is my life working for you?"

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh, yeah.

Bob Goff: Because if your life isn't working for the people you love the most, your life ain't working.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

Bob Goff: So whether it's paper plates or an honest conversation, it doesn't need to be this big counter or intervention, you don't have to have a talking pillow. But what you can say is, I'd like to make sure that my life is working for you, so let's just talk about it. Those are such great honest conversations, great rituals and habits to get into.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, And then you get to the real stuff of life. You don't just get to the end and go, darn, it's over. I wish I had. So that's super, super helpful to just pause and do that.

So one of the things you wrote in your book is that every day we get to choose whether to give the microphone to hope or fear. So here's an honest question, Bob Goff, one of the happiest people I have ever heard. Do you ever give the microphone to fear ever? I mean, like, do you or have you? And, if so, how do you grab it back and give it back to hope?

Bob Goff: Yeah, there's the fear like danger close kind of fear. We've got schools and safe houses and stuff in Mogadishu and just outside of Kabul, Afghanistan, and Iraq. So there's the danger close kind of fear, and we all experience that in one way or the other. I don't tend to freak out. I just can become hypervigilant during those times, and so that's kind of exhausting. If you're living in fear, even in your neighborhood or where you live, or on highways or -- you might be afraid of lizards or chickens or whatever. But if you become hypervigilant, if that's your go-to, then to find out a way to kind of talk yourself off that ledge.

So for me -- I've heard so many people talk about the words "be not afraid" showing up in Scripture 365 times. And then we all take note of that because we say, wow, how ironic, that's how many days in the year. But here's a factoid for you. The word "remember" is in the Scriptures 8,670 times. And so what I do to deal with fear is to remember, just to remember. If you're in an awkward relationship or things got kind of super wonky, to remember all the relationships that were good, that you actually are pretty good at this stuff. You don't have it perfect, but you're not bad at that. Remember -- when somebody's been mean to you, remember how kind somebody's been to you. So that idea of -- not just putting down fear, but just actually addressing the fear by remembering how good God has been, how faithful your friends have been, how trustworthy the circumstances have been in the past. So I want to go ham on remember as an antidote to fear.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, I love that. Because fear screams so loud. And if you don't calm it down by remembering, then -- yeah.

Bob Goff: Oh, yeah, it'll take your lunch money every time.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh, it does. And when your body experiences it, it's like your body has a good memory, so it's quick to go there fast, unless you, yeah, balance it out with the remembrance. So good. What I love about all this, Bob, it's beautiful, it's fun, and it's so practical. It's so practical.

Bob Goff: Yeah. We don't need more information. I think we got all the information we need. We need more examples in your life and the lives of the listeners that you have to say, When is it working? And if it jumps the tracks, then what do we do next time? Let's come up with a plan for next time.

Jennifer Rothschild: Because there is always a next time. Thank you, Lord.

All right, brother. Your book, one of the things I love about it, it really demonstrates just the joy, the importance of keeping a childlike wonder in all of our lives. And that involves also our spiritual lives. It's all connected. So this will be our last question. So do you have any techniques that we can use -- and I know you've already given us a lot about whimsy and wonder. But this childlike wonder, do you have any techniques that we can also begin to apply to help us just step into this childlike wonder mindset?

Bob Goff: Yeah, I think just deciding, you know. If you're going to make 33,000 decisions today, what if you make one of the early ones to decide to look beyond what is apparent? So if somebody says something lame to me, I will imagine a thought bubble over their head which says, "I'm being really helpful right now." So most people aren't setting out to be lame or to say dumb things, and yet many of us -- me included -- say lame and dumb things from time to time. And yet if we start viewing other people as lame and dumb, then you'll have a very jaded view of the world.

What if instead we say, when I encounter people that have a different worldview, I start thinking that in their mind they're being really helpful right now and then I don't need to complete the argument. But they're not, and I wish they'd stop, and all that, just say, in their mind they're being really helpful, this is their contribution. It wouldn't be the contribution I'd make, it wouldn't be the fight I would engage in, it wouldn't be the personal attack I would launch, but in their mind they're being helpful in their way, and so God bless them. But you don't need to engage them. You can air gap some of that crazy, but to just say, like, yeah, blessings on ya.

Jennifer Rothschild: One word: decide. Decide. The first decision of our over 33,000 decisions is to decide to look beyond what is apparent or what is obvious. Look for the good. We do really tend to find what we're looking for.

KC Wright: So good. I love how he told us to imagine a thought bubble --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

KC Wright: -- and view those folks as trying to be helpful instead of lame and dumb. In their mind they're being helpful.

Jennifer Rothschild: Exactly. I thought that was really helpful. And I'm so going to see thought bubbles now with people. This is going to help so much.

Plus, I'm going to apply the -- what did he call it? -- the LCE, least creepy explanation. Okay? That was so brilliant. That was so good. I'm so grateful for his life, for his work, and how God uses him.

KC Wright: Yes. We're so grateful that we get to give one of his books away right now. Go to Jennifer's Insta to enter to win or go straight to Show Notes at 413podcast.com/345 to get connected. And, of course, read a transcript and find an easy way to purchase the book.

So family, let's chase and catch whimsy. Shall we?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

KC Wright: We can because we can do all things through Christ who gives us strength. See, a thought bubble to help nurture that mindset.

Jennifer Rothschild: There you go. I can.

KC Wright: I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: And you can.

KC Wright: Yes, you can.