Jennifer Rothschild:

You are made for far more than a love-hate relationship with your body. You know, far from a superficial issue, self-image is a spiritual issue because God has made your body good from the very beginning. And lots of us know that, you know, in our heads, but it's a whole 'nother thing to make it real in our bodies. That's why today's conversation with Jess Connolly is going to be so good. She knows this inner conflict all too well. And today we're going to start this eye-opening, empowering process of renaming what the world has labeled as less than and rest in God's workmanship. So off we go.

K.C. Wright:

Welcome, welcome, welcome to the 4:13 Podcast where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you. Now, welcome my buddy. She's the female version of me. True story. Would you please make welcome Jennifer Rothschild?

Jennifer Rothschild:

Yes, minus the beard. Minus the beard. Hey, welcome. We are glad you're here. I'm Jennifer and I'm here to help you be and do more than you even feel capable of as you live this "I can" life of Philippians 4:13.

K.C. Wright:

This is just two friends, one topic, and, the best part, zero stress.

Jennifer Rothschild:

Zero. Zero.

K.C. Wright:

But can we be honest. Talking body shame can be stressful because most of us deal with this issue that we're about to discuss.

Jennifer Rothschild:

Yes, we do. Body shame is a thing, even if you don't realize it's a thing; Maybe that disdain you feel when you look in the mirror or the fact that you're always trying to make your body into this project, lose weight, gain, work out, don't work -- you know what I'm saying? It's all body shame in disguise. And I got to tell you, K.C., for me, I deal with this -- I'm not going to pretend I don't -- I deal with this. But for me, one of the things that has happened in my life that has kind of given me a little bit of freedom in this area is blindness, believe it or not. Now, in some areas. Because one of the interesting things -- if you're new to us, you may not know my story, but I lost the majority of my eyesight when I was a teenager, fifteen years old, because of a disease in both of my retinas. Well, that meant early on I was legally blind. Now, the disease is degenerative, so over the years I've continued to lose eyesight, and now I'm total, everything's dark all the time. But what's really interesting early on is my mother, K.C. -- you know, this story -- she had promised me I could wear makeup when I turned fifteen, long before we knew I had this eye disease.

K.C. Wright:

Right, right.

Jennifer Rothschild:

But she kept her promise and she taught me how to put on makeup without being able to see. And so y'all -- I mean, you can't see me right now, but to this day I still put on my makeup using this system.

K.C. Wright:

Yeah. And you're always rocking, girl. I mean, you look great right now. Jennifer always dresses like she's ready for television. I come over today, ball cap, hoodie. This is how K.C. rolls. Jennifer, she's ready to be on stage somewhere.

Jennifer Rothschild:

But you look cute in a ball cap. If I put one on, I'd look like my -- you know, my eighth-grade self. Anyway, so I so I learned how to do this -- right? -- this makeup, because I could not see in the mirror. And I'm not going to dismiss the reality of how difficult that can be. I would much rather see in the mirror. OK? I would much rather choose the color of my blush or what color my hair is when I color it. I would much rather make my own individual assessments, but I can't see in a mirror. So as hard as that is, though, in many ways it's been one of the most freeing things. And to be honest, K.C., the older I've gotten, I need to care a little more than I do sometimes. So part of the reason I always look like I'm ready for TV is because I'm like, OK, well, if I've got to put on makeup, I've got to -- I know one way to do it and it's going to look good. And I've got two looks. And you know the other look. It's the I don't really care what I look like look.

K.C. Wright:

Right.

Jennifer Rothschild:

But here's -- I got to tell you a quick, funny story before we hear from Jess. OK? So one of the funniest things that happened with putting on my makeup is -- so I was getting ready one time to go speak at an event in my community. And I'd just got my haircut and I was having so much trouble dealing with my hair. And, you know, I knew it didn't look good. Even though I couldn't see it, I knew it did not look good. And so I remembered that a friend of mine had given me samples of these new cosmetics. I think she was selling Mary Kay at the time. And so she had given me these little samples of eyeliners and lip liners, and I thought, well, I don't typically wear lip liner, but how hard can it be, right, you know. So I put on my lip liner and then I went and put on the new eyeliner and I was feeling very cute. So I walk out of my bathroom. And in order to get to the kitchen garage door where Phil was going to pick me up to take me to go to this event -- he was coming home from work and just going to grab me and we were going to go -- I had to walk through the living room. And our oldest son, Clayton, who was maybe 12, 13 at the time, he was playing a video game. And so he evidently takes his eyes from the TV and he looks at his mama and he said, "Mom, your lips are black." Except I didn't think it was as funny as you did, K.C. And so, like, I corrected him. I'm like, "Son, my lips are not black. OK? I'm wearing lip liner tonight. It's just a little more dramatic, you know, than you're used to." And he goes, "OK," and he goes right back to Super Mario. So I hear the garage door opening and I scurry through that little galley kitchen, I get right there to that kitchen garage door exit, I'm pulling the door knob toward me just as Phil has made it to the door, and so when I open the door, he's right there and we're face to face. And with more panic than I've ever heard in that man's voice, he says, "Jennifer Rothchild, your eyes are flaming red." Yeah. So I mixed up the two. So I'm telling you, there are some benefits for your self-esteem in not being able to see in a mirror, and there are some real detriments to not being able to see in the mirror. But it's helped me, seriously, take myself less seriously.

K.C. Wright:

Oh, my word.

Jennifer Rothschild:

I mean, gosh, you've just got to. And I think that's one of the things you're going to learn from this conversation. When you really realize how seriously God takes you, how deeply he values you, you're able to kind of lighten up. you know. You're able to just receive yourself as you are and not take yourself so seriously and constantly make your body this big project to help support your own self-esteem. It's a good conversation, so, K.C., I think we just need to get to it.

K.C. Wright:

Let's do it. This is why we are so blessed that Jess has dealt with this topic. So let me introduce her so we can get to this conversation. Jess and her husband, Nick, lead Bright City Church in Charleston, South Carolina. They've got four kiddos spanning from 6 to 12 and a wild and kind of stinky dog. Jess says that her life is loud, and she loves it that way. Jess has helped start a handful of ministries and businesses like She Reads Truth, All Good Things Collective, and Go + Tell Gals. She is a great communicator and the author of this latest book that she and Jennifer are talking about entitled "Breaking Free from Body Shame." So pull up your chair. There's always room at the table for you, because this, my friend, is going to be so good.

Jennifer Rothschild:

OK, Jess, any time somebody writes a book like you have just written, it means you've got some experience. So I want to know what are, you know, the broken beliefs that you have held on to about your body, you know, that have really held you back and dogged you.

Jess Connolly:

It's interesting, one of the biggest struggles I've had with my body is this belief that it is weird or strange. And for the life of me, I cannot tell you -- I can't trace that, where that came from, but just that it is, like, somehow off or different has been a real lie for me. I think like many women -- it's not every woman's story -- but I'm definitely worried about taking up too much space as a woman also, for sure.

Jennifer Rothschild:

Well, I read that 97 percent of women deal with some kind of body issue and a lot of body shame that goes with it. Which honestly, I read that and I thought, well, who are the 3 percent? I want to know what's going on in their brains.

Jess Connolly:

Exactly.

Jennifer Rothschild:

How did they escape it? Because I think -- I don't know anybody who doesn't, you know. We're either too thin, we're too heavy, or we're not toned enough or we don't, you know, look like we did when we were a certain decade. And it feels like such an obsession sometimes. And I think the more we obsess, yeah, it can lead to just all sorts of -- I guess I would call it wrong meanings that we assign to it. And so in your book you say there are two true things: the truest thing about us and the truest thing about God. So what are those truths?

Jess Connolly:

Yeah. The truest thing about you, the truest thing about me in the best way is that we're loved by God. We're made and loved by God. And I think especially in a world where so many of us are just trying to figure out who we are and what we can rely on about ourselves, this is what we can rely on, that God is good and he loves us and he made us in love. And the truest thing about him is that he doesn't make mistakes --

Jennifer Rothschild:

Thank you, Lord.

Jess Connolly:

-- and he cannot make a mistake. And so combining those two thoughts is so, so, so wildly helpful.

Jennifer Rothschild:

I guess you can't have -- you can't choose one of them to be true. They're either both true or they're not true.

Jess Connolly:

Right.

Jennifer Rothschild:

And I think that's an interesting balance that a lot of us miss. One of the things you said also in your book that I thought was really good, and I think it relates to these two truths, is that self-image is far more than a superficial issue. Self image is a spiritual issue.

Jess Connolly:

Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild:

So I want you to explain that to us.

Jess Connolly:

Yeah. I think it's so easy to pass off body image issues or thinking about our body as this kind of, like, worldly thing and like, oh, if I'm really deeply spiritual, I won't think about that. But God made our bodies and they are where we experience him. They're where we worship him for the time being. And so I think that how we feel about our bodies not only really speaks to how we feel about God and his process as a creator and a healer and a king, but also really, truly it impacts how we see the world, how we interact with other people, how we interact with ourselves, what we think about us and who he's made us to be and what we're capable of. And so it's this super incredibly spiritual issue that really needs some theology around it and needs some wisdom and truth spoken into it rather than just writing it off as like, oh, that's just silly, you know, the girls will get over that one day, it's vain.

Jennifer Rothschild:

So this might be a hard question because I'm taking you out of left field here, but if you were in charge of just articulating what is the theology of our body image, how would you explain what that is?

Jess Connolly:

Yeah, absolutely. I don't think -- I think to say we need a theology about it often terrifies people because they're like, oh, one more thing I have to learn.

Jennifer Rothschild:

Right.

Jess Connolly:

But while I think God is good and big and mysterious and not necessarily figureoutable -- and I don't want him to be figureoutable, I don't want to be able to write a -- I don't want to be able to write an equation that helps me understand God. But I do think his heart is clear and everything he does is motivated by love. And so in the simplest way, I would say that he made our bodies with intention, he made them differently with intention, it wasn't an accident, and that we have a choice to subscribe to what he says is true about our bodies, that they're good, that they have a purpose, or we have the capacity to really subscribe to what the world says about our bodies, and that would be that they need to fit some kind of cultural expectation. And so I think yeah, I think we need to understand what he says about our bodies, how he made them, what he made them for. And then on top of that, I really think that we get to use what we know, we get to use that theology to be agents of change in a culture that has believed some really dark things.

Jennifer Rothschild:

OK. Because I want to ask you more about that in a minute, because I do believe we believe some dark things, and we need to unbelieve them and help create the unbelief. But before I do, I want to ask you about this. Because as you explain that -- which I'm totally resonating with -- I'm mindful of this. OK? How do we strike this balance then -- OK? -- of self-acceptance, yet at the same time wanting and trying to be good stewards of our body, look, our best, be a certain weight, feel our best. How do we balance all that?

Jess Connolly:

Yeah. Absolutely. I think the question becomes -- the big guiding question for me becomes, are -- number one -- there's really two questions. There's a million questions, but thinking of the two I'm working from. Number one is whose glory is this about?

Jennifer Rothschild:

Mmm.

Jess Connolly:

So this -- right. It's a great thing to ask. Like, OK, are we going to be about, like, self-love and promoting our bodies and glorifying our bodies then? And I would say, like, well, God loves me, so I do want to understand his love for me, and God loves my body, so I do want to understand what it means to love my body well. But ultimately the question for me is going to be am I glorifying God? Am I glorifying God or am I glorifying my flesh? Do I want someone to leave any kind of encounter with me and think, you know, great things about me and my body or do I want people to leave spending time with me or encountering me and feel like they've encountered some of God, you know, or that they're in awe of him in some capacity. So that becomes the first question for me. And then the second question really is, are we treating our bodies as if they're good, or are we trying to make our bodies good? And so so often when I talk about body image and body shame, you know, women will say like, but we have to take care of our bodies. I say, Yes. Yes. Amen. Or people will say, like, But I love to exercise. I'm not doing it to strive and I would say, Yes. Amen. I agree. The question is, when we're eating, when we're moving, when we're resting, are we doing these things to respond to the truth that God has made our bodies good or are we trying to make them so? And that's a really subtle shift. And even from the outside it can look the exact same, but the heart difference is everything.

Jennifer Rothschild

Wow. That is a lot to unpack, it really is. Because it's -- you put it into a very precise statement, but that has layers and layers. And by the way, for our listeners I will have some of these highlights on the show notes so that you can go back and read what Jess has just said, and we'll have the transcripts. And, of course, the book I know really unpacks this, because this is something I know that I struggle with. And you really gave some nuanced stuff that's very challenging, spiritually very challenging. Who do I love more? You know, that's good. That's good stuff. OK. So let's try to take some of that and make it really concrete. OK? So you've got a woman who's listening to you and she's like, oh my gosh, I so get this. I might not have been able to explain it like she did, but I get it. I feel it, I'm living it. So she gets up in the morning and she looks in the mirror, Jess, and she thinks, I cannot stand what I see. You know, that's self-loathing thing. So how does she look in the mirror -- I mean, what can she do in a concrete way and just rename what the world has labeled as less than or not good? What can she do when she's looking in the mirror?

Jess Connolly:

Yeah. You know, I feel like the world promotes this idea of, like, fake it till you make it. Just say something or do something, even when you don't mean it, and that that changes everything. And I think a lot of us are burnt out on a fake-it-till-you-make-it kind of lifestyle. But there is something really beautiful that we have access to in the kingdom, which is what you just called the power of renaming, which the book talks a lot about. And something happens when we put truth in our mouths and we make agreements with God's truth, outside of our mouth, with our words, that I do believe things begin to shift. And so I would say it's such a simple step, but to stand in front of that mirror instead of rolling her eyes or saying, like, ugh, you know. Just say like, your body is good. I'm grateful for this body. God, thank you for this body. I believe something really does happen when you put some of that truth in your mouth and things begin to shift in a really beautiful way. So I would tell her literally to start there. And then I think what happens after that is -- after you start putting those truths in your body, you realize -- we all begin to realize how many negative and untrue things we might say with our body, and they begin to sound gross and hollow and disturbing. And you begin to realize like, oh, these uncomfortable things I say with my mouth are so unkind to God, they really, really are defaming his work and his creation. And then this movement moves from your mouth into your mind, and then you start to even check the things that you think about your body and that begins to change. And genuinely what happens is a beautiful act of restoration in our hearts where we make the shift from defaming and speaking negatively about this good body that God's given us to speaking life, speaking truth, believing truth about our bodies, and then treating them as if they really are good.

Jennifer Rothschild:

Well, I mean -- I forget which of the Corinthians says that our bodies are his temple, that we were bought with the blood of Jesus. There is such value -- for us to value our bodies like Jesus values us would change everything, it really would. And in your book I noticed some of the chapter titles too caught me. You talked about our bodies are not projects and they're not trophies. So break that down. But start first with what do you mean that our body is not a project?

Jess Connolly:

Yeah. Well, I noticed this in my heart and then I began to ask some women, like, hey, do you guys -- do you do this? Do you set little, like, timelines for your body? Sometimes they're little, sometimes they're big. Sometimes they're attainable and sometimes they're wildly unattainable.

Jennifer Rothschild:

Yep.

Jess Connolly:

But moments in our life where we ascertain that we're going to be or look or reach some certain goal or some certain platform in our body. And so small examples of this would be like getting ready for vacation. Big examples would be how you want to look on your wedding day, or how you imagine you'd look when you became a mom, or what you thought you'd look like by the time you are 30. And putting all these little expectations, and even -- even, like, visual images of what we perceive that we'll be like really turns us into this project mentality just promotes this project mentality in our bodies where we believe that there is always a problem to solve or a problem area to fix. I can't tell you how much I hate the phrase "problem area" when it comes to a body in general.

Jennifer Rothschild:

Yes. Yeah.

Jess Connolly:

We begin to think in this project mentality over and over and over again. And so I've asked -- I've heard from some women like, oh, I don't really think of my body like a project. And then I'll say, like, did you have a -- you know, have you ever had a proposed vision of yourself on vacation? Did you ever think about what you would look like, you know, come Easter? Did you ever think like, oh, well, when I go back for that high school reunion or that girls' trip in the fall, I'd really like to look like blank? And what would it look like to just say to your body, hey, you're good enough already. You're good enough already. Just showing up is good. And what would it look like to give yourself the freedom to stop trying to be this ideal version of your physical self?

Jennifer Rothschild:

That's good.

Jess Connolly:

So that's the project mentality.

Jennifer Rothschild:

Yeah. And lots of us live that way without even knowing it. As you describe it, I think, well, that's what I do, yeah.

Jess Connolly:

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Jennifer Rothschild:

OK. So what about a trophy, then? What does that mean to you?

Jess Connolly:

You know, I think we hear the word, like, trophy wife or something like that, like, oh, that's not us, like, we don't -- I'm not like that. But this is again one of those more subtle questions that I've asked women, have you ever thought about what people will say when you're getting dressed? Like, when you're getting dressed to go to church, have you ever thought, like, OK, when I walk in the room, they'll think like, oh, she looks so cute today? You've probably thought that. Like, most women -- or have you ever, like, been getting your hair cut and thought like, oh, I wonder what they'll think when they -- or what they'll say when they -- when they see this new haircut. And again, not to say that I think there's anything wrong with enjoying style or fashion or getting your hair done or putting on makeup -- I'm not defaming or decrying any of those things. I'm just saying I think that we forget that our physical adornment was never supposed to be the best part of us. It was never supposed to be what we led with and received the glory about. Especially as image bearers of Jesus, we want to magnify his goodness, his grace, his glory. And I think just watching those areas of our life and really starting to separate our looks and how we live up to some cultural standard from how we view righteousness or how we view maturity or how we view, like, having had made it in the world, that we kind of lump all of these things together. When you look OK, when you look appropriate according to whatever culture you're in, then you've somehow arrived. Really beginning to separate those things and saying, I'm a whole person, God is mighty in me today, I don't subscribe to cultural standards, and the best thing about me isn't whether or not people think I look OK.

Jennifer Rothschild:

And then you know what happens, Jess, is you become more beautiful.

Jess Connolly:

Right.

Jennifer Rothschild:

You really do.

Jess Connolly:

You absolutely do. And you think about the women that you just really love spending time around there. They probably live very free. And it's magnetic, It's encouraging. It's just so life giving to be around.

Jennifer Rothschild:

Well, one of the things that I have determined as I've gotten older, all the choices I make with my body are to try to create non-issues. So I'll get a haircut that I like. And I don't care if it doesn't change for 40 years, if that's what it takes so it can remain a non-issue for me. So I don't have to think about it. I'm not always determining, is it cute? Does it look good? Is this stylish on -- I'm like, I don't care anymore. It's a non-issue. It works for me.

Jess Connolly:

Wow. Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild:

And so to me that's part of that victory. Now, I don't have that in every area of my life -- please know that I'm in process -- but, you know, I think that's the goal, because then -- yeah, it's in this beautiful way that we can start to decrease and he can increase, and then we're free and then we're happy. And, girl, I just think your book is timely and powerful because so many of us deal with this. And it's the shame that goes with it, you know, that to me is the stronghold, and that's what needs to break. And it's not just, you know, those of us who are listening right now, our generation, whatever generation you represent, but there are daughters and sisters coming up behind us that are dealing with the same thing, and probably even magnified. So how can we, Jess, be part of this process, just like partnering with God to really be change agents, like you mentioned earlier, to this coming generation of women?

Jess Connolly:

Yeah. I mean, the first one that is the most simple, but I genuinely believe may be the most challenging for so many of us, is just asking the question, do I believe God can bring freedom to me in this area? And I think so many of us feel just like the idea's insurmountable, how is God going to change this in this entire culture and this entire generation? How is he going to, you know, heal past generation and -- let's don't stress about that. Let's just ask the question, do I genuinely believe that God has the capacity and desire for me to experience freedom in my body? And I think we have to answer that question first. Do I think he can? Do I think he wants to? And from there, I believe that individually, when we begin to step into that freedom that was already purchased for us on the Cross of Christ, really understanding this isn't something we have to earn, this isn't something we have to strive for. Even the title of the book, I love, "Breaking Free from Body Shame," because the rest of the book essentially just tells you you're already free. If the Son has set you free, you are free indeed. Now we get to walk in it, now we get to live in it, now we get to agree with our mouths and with our lives and with our bodies. And so I genuinely, genuinely believe just starting there asking can I live free, do I think God can do that in me, do I think God wants to do that in the end, what would it look like for me to do that today, I believe will really genuinely start a ripple of freedom and liberty in your community, in your family, in the women you live with, and it will catch.

Jennifer Rothschild:

Well, my friends, let's start that ripple of freedom. Bring it on. Seriously. I mean, this is just so real. Like, she's in our brains, right?

K.C. Wright:

Yeah. And her comment about making your body a project, yeah, I get that and I do that, uh-huh, for sure.

Jennifer Rothschild:

I know. There is so much that we can identify with here, seriously. I jotted down my highlights and takeaways, and they'll be at the show notes so you can check them out at 413podcast.com/147.

K.C. Wright:

Also, you can connect there to win Jess's book. We'll be giving it away at Jennifer's Instagram. We will have a link at the show notes or you can simply go straight to Jennifer's profile now. It's simply @jenrothschild. You probably know somebody who would really benefit from this book. And Jess is so tender and honest and really helpful in this hard topic to discuss sometimes.

Jennifer Rothschild:

Yeah, it is hard. I'm one of those who needs that book. And I'll tell you this, y'all, you can get her book on Audible for free. If you're not a member yet, you can get it for free with a free -- did I say free three more times there? -- with a no obligation 30-day trial period. So you just go to 413podcast.com/audible or we'll have a link to it, of course, also at the show notes.

K.C. Wright:

Such good stuff today once again on the 4:13 Podcast. And, hey, thank you for being a 4:13er. If you haven't subscribed, do it. And if you haven't left a review, please leave a kind one, right?

Jennifer Rothschild:

Yeah.

K.C. Wright:

Because here's why: it helps spread this hope-filled encouragement. When listeners like you leave kind reviews, it leaves little signposts for those who follow.

Jennifer Rothschild:

Yeah, it does.

K.C. Wright:

Okay. Well, we're done for today. So until next week, remember that whatever you face, however you feel, you can truly do all things through Christ, who gives you strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild:

I can.

FGF Audience Members

And you can!

Jennifer Rothschild:

That's some good stuff today, K.C.

K.C. Wright:

So good.

Jennifer Rothschild:

Wasn't that fun to hear all those women shouting that, "And you can!"

K.C. Wright:

I love it.

Jennifer Rothschild:

I know. Those were ladies from Flint, Michigan at a Fresh Grounded Faith. I thought that was the coolest thing.

K.C. Wright:

Our 4:13ers are a force to be reckoned with.

Jennifer Rothschild:

I'm telling you.

K.C. Wright:

There's nothing we can't overcome --

Jennifer Rothschild:

I know

K.C. Wright:

-- and conquer together.

Jennifer Rothschild:

Yes.

K.C. Wright:

And together we can do more.

Jennifer Rothschild:

Yes.