4:13 Podcast: Can I Access God's Power When I Feel Powerless? With Randy Frazee [Episode 165]

Jennifer Rothschild: Since 2020, depression and anxiety have been on the rise. People are fatigued. They're still trying to find their way, and lots of us have felt powerless. Author Randy Frazee knows that feeling. After struggling with clinical depression for months, he experienced firsthand a power that he didn't even think was possible. But it was, because it is a power that is promised. The same power that raised Jesus from the dead is the same power that was in him, and it's in you. So today you're going to learn how to access that power that is available to you through the Holy Spirit. Randy's going to guide you to freedom from the things that hold you back and give you the three steps you need to walk daily in the same power that raised Jesus from the dead. Sounds good, doesn't it? And for the geeks out there, let me just say, we really geeked out over some Greek words that make this conversation come to life. So do not miss it. All right, K.C., ready, set, go.

K.C. Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and Biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. Supernatural strength. Now, welcome your host, who's already pumped about the geeky part --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, I am.

K.C. Wright: -- of this conversation, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, I am. And I'm also pumped because you are here today. Thank you for listening. Thank you for showing up and being a 4:13er. K.C. and I are very grateful for you. And we're just here to help you be and do all that God has called you and created you to be, because you can do it through His strength in you. I know that K.C. and I live by that truth, and we just want to make sure that we do everything we can to give you the confidence to trust God that you can believe 4:13, that you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. And especially when we have a conversation like this today. Y'all, I wanted Randy Frazee to be a part of this podcast because I read his book, "His Mighty Strength," and I just thought it was so practical and so where we live. And he's going to tell you more about this. But he was actually writing this book when he fell into a terrible depression. And, you know, as he was telling the story to me, what you're about to hear, I so identified. Because, K.C., several years ago I wrote a Bible study called "Missing Pieces --

K.C. Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- Real Hope When God Doesn't Make Sense," and I will never forget working on it. And it's dealing with these six big questions of faith, you know, like, "God, are you fair?" "God, do you really care?" "God, do you hear me when I pray?" that kind of stuff. I mean, really hard stuff. And I was just struggling with it so much because I was also just in a pit of depression. And I was sitting on my back deck -- and I remember it so well -- crying to my editor on the phone, "I can't do this. I don't know what -- I have no credibility. I can't do this. I can't even type and I think I'm going to tell people how to trust God." Blah, blah, blah, I went on and on and I was just such a wreck. And I remember my editor saying, "No, this is what provides the credibility, so just -- you know, let's work together, let's make it happen, we'll postpone your deadline, but you can do this." And I'm so grateful because it made "Missing Pieces" a better Bible study. And I think that's the same with Randy. I think his book has more credibility because of what he dealt with when he was writing it. So I can't wait for you guys to hear this conversation with Randy Frazee.

K.C. Wright: Randy is the author of "The Heart of the Story," "Think, Act, Be Like Jesus," "What Happens After You Die" -- which is a wow book -- among many others. He and his wife, Rozanne, live in Kansas City, Kansas, where he pastors the Westside Family Church. Today, though, he's talking about his latest book, "His Mighty Strength: Walk Daily in the Same Power That Raised Jesus from the Dead." Man, I need that book and I need this conversation. So just relax -- there's zero stress now -- and pull up a chair -- there's room at the table for you -- and enjoy this very important conversation.

Jennifer Rothschild: Randy, I have looked forward to this conversation because your book has really resonated with me. So I just want to start with the way you start your book -- okay? -- something that happened to you at 3:00 a.m. I want you to take us there to that place, describe what happened, and then kind of give us a picture of what followed.

Randy Frazee: Well, thanks, Jennifer, for having me on. Rozanne and I just love so much your work and what you're doing, and love having you to the churches that I pastor, how you minister to people in such a powerful way. That connects to a little bit of my story as well. Yeah, 3:00 a.m. in the morning, the first night that it happened, I found myself actually beating my pillow. And I was basically taking it out on myself and I was in just a real sense of terror. And what had happened to me, Jennifer, is that I had experienced a bout of betrayal, which I've experienced in the past, but this was a little bit closer in. And normally I was able to sort of just shrug it off. As a pastor of a large church, you know, you just sometimes have that happen to you, people leave and -- but this was at a much deeper level, and I thought I'd really sort of moved on from that. But my soul was deeply, deeply wounded by it, and I went into the basement of my brain, as my counselor told me, where there's fear, there's fight or flight, and I was trying to fight it. I was primarily blaming myself for being stupid and not seeing how this plot was unfolding and how it was coming. I woke my wife up, and I didn't tell her what was going on the first night, and she said, "Go back to sleep." And so I just continued to rewind this film in my head, and this happened for several nights. I remember, Jennifer, when I woke my wife up maybe on the third or fourth night just sort of flagellating, just sort of beating myself up for being so stupid, I didn't want her to think that -- I wanted her to sort of enter into it because I was feeling a tremendous sense of isolation and aloneness. My identity was being crushed and I had entered into a season of being in a pit, in a valley, if you will, and it was really -- it was the beginning of a very long dark season.

Jennifer Rothschild: Which really culminated -- well, I don't know culminated. Maybe I could say peaked with learning you were clinically depressed. And you're a happy guy, you love God, you're in professional vocational ministry, yet here you found yourself in this pit of depression. So I want you to take us to that place. How did you discover it literally -- you know, you can't just keep beating your pillow. So what kind of action did you take, and then how did you feel when you learned you were clinically depressed?

Randy Frazee: Yeah, the manifestation of my depression and anxiety didn't just happen at night. I found myself highly unmotivated during the day. And eventually my wife said, "Hey, listen, if something doesn't happen here, you know, we're going to be broke because you don't have any motivation whatsoever." And so I had a team of four people, my family doctor, a Christian counselor, a Christian psychologist, and a Christian psychiatrist, and all of them -- at one time I remember particularly the psychiatrist who said, "Yes, Randy, you are clinically depressed." And I just remember it hitting me like, wow, how did I get here? I'm not allowed to be here, I'm a pastor, and I just was really, really saddened by it. And I remember they all worked together to try to find different levels of medication to get me back where I was sleeping again. And I remember one of them was a medication that you can't just take it and then decide not to take it. You have to wean yourself off of it and it's a very addictive drug. And I remember holding the little white pill in my hand to take the first one, knowing that once I took this, I would have to stay on it and maybe would get addicted to it. And I literally collapsed in my wife's arms and couldn't believe that me, a pastor -- who, by the way, was getting ready to write a book that was quite the opposite of this -- would -- it was such a contrast, Jennifer, to be asked by Thomas Nelson to write a book on empowerment, you know, like, walk daily in the same power that raised Jesus from the dead, and most days I couldn't raise myself off to the couch.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Well, and, Randy, I think that's so interesting. And what it has done also, as hard as that was, boy, did it lend credibility to your message. But I'm curious -- so you're under contract to write this book on his mighty strength and, like you said, you can't get yourself off the couch. How did you -- what did you do? Because there's people listening right now who feel stuck. Now, I love that you've already said you tended to medically your physical needs, you went to doctors. And sometimes I think when we do that, that allows us to get our brains a little more agile and unstuck. But kind of give us that process and how you dealt with this responsibility of writing a book on God's power when you were so completely powerless.

Randy Frazee: Yeah, that's really a good point, Jennifer. I would encourage anybody that is listening that they don't separate the spiritual power with physical help. For me, getting back to sleep is one of the most powerful things, and sometimes you need to be helped. That particular medication that I took actually did not work and I had to try several others. Ultimately for me it was Xanax, to be honest with you, that took away the anxiety from me so that I could get some sleep, and the sleep became replenishing me. But there was a deeper spiritual issue, and I really felt like it was a real challenge for me. And really the content of this book, of which I was late delivering the manuscript on -- and I did not want to tell my story. My editor was really helpful in that. And so basically I was being asked -- I asked to write this book on tapping into the same power that raised Jesus from the dead. Ephesians 1 tells us that the same power that raised Jesus from the dead lives in me. And, of course, I'm thinking, wow, I'm writing a book on this theologically, but I'm not experiencing it at all. And it was actually the process of the book and the life of Jesus that walked me through how to begin feeling unempowered to living an empowered life and returning, and it all has to do with the life of Jesus and how he lived his life. And so the book is divided, Jennifer, into three sections. The first section is "Emptied," you have to empty yourself; the second section has to do with alignment, aligning to the will of the Father; and the third section, it has to deal with empowerment. And those steps have to be taken in order. You can't start with empowerment before you go to alignment. And you can't get to alignment until you get to empty. And what we see in this book is that in the life of Jesus, that he not only taught us these principles, but he put himself in a super vulnerable place to show us the way to tap into this power. And I studied that for several years to write this book and had no idea that God wanted me to be an object lesson of it. And you know what, Jennifer? It actually worked. Not overnight. It wasn't an elixir pill. It was about eight months that I really struggled in a deep, dark way.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, you know, though, I think that is the severe mercy of God toward you and toward those of us who read the book. Because for you to stand behind a podium and present these theological truths sounds -- can sound and feel unattainable when we can't raise ourselves off the couch. But when we know you struggled this and you studied it and you saw the truth of the emptying, I just think it gives -- it gave me hope. When I started reading the book, I felt hope. Like, I have felt invited into this process, not that I'm being spoken to from an expert who hasn't experienced it. So I want to start with that concept, Randy, the way you've divided up the book. Let's start with the emptying. Okay? Because you talk about Jesus left something behind when he came to earth, and you describe what we need to leave behind. So give us a picture of what that looks like, what this emptying process looked like for Jesus and for us.

Randy Frazee: Yeah, I think what's really cool about this discovery, Jennifer, is -- I think that I'm finally letting -- in my reading of the Gospels, letting Jesus be who he actually was versus trying to protect him. And what I understand and discovered is that when Jesus left the heavens voluntarily, that he left behind access to his power. As a matter of fact, I take the point of view that he left behind his omnipresence, meaning that he used to be able to be in all places at all times, and now he's limiting himself, like us, to being in one place at a time. He voluntarily limited him. Number two, he's leaving behind -- not losing, but leaving behind his omniscience, or his ability to know all things, so that when he entered into flesh and walked on our earth, he didn't know everything. He had a sense of temporary divine amnesia. And the third one is omnipotence, where he left behind his all power. He put himself in a vulnerable position to be just like us, human, humanity, so that he could empathize with us and show us the way. So Jesus left behind his control. What we need to do is leave behind our illusion of control, because we've never actually been in control. And that was one of the biggest challenges in my journey to recovery, is I thought I was in control. And so when I was betrayed, I tried to fix this in my own strength, only to realize I couldn't control it. So the very first step is Jesus, you know, voluntarily left behind his control of these three things, we need to empty ourselves of the illusion that we ever were in control. And that is hard. Matter of fact, if when you go to Alcoholics Anonymous -- I remember sitting in a meeting where they allowed me to kind of participate in it. The very first step of an alcoholic in recovery is to recognize that they are utterly powerless to control their life. And I think that the same thing is true with us, and Jesus showed us in his pattern.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know, that's so countercultural, and even counter Christian cultural, you know. I mean, my podcast is called the 4:13 Podcast, and it's based on Philippians 4:13, but I emphasize constantly the two most important words of that verse are not "I can," but it is the "through Christ." Because technically the reality of Philippians 4:13 cannot be true unless you can misquote it and say that's true. Like, I can't do one thing without Christ's power dwelling in me. I mean, I just don't have it in me. And there's freedom there, but it also feels kind of counterintuitive because everything in us wants to be able to be in control. But let's pause real quick before we move on, Randy, because I have to have a geek moment with you. Okay?

Randy Frazee: Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. So I know what you're referring to is in Philippians 2, where Jesus emptied himself, and it's that Greek word of kenosis. Okay? But here's where I wonder if our listeners get a speed bump, because I kind of do. So if Jesus -- since Jesus is fully God and fully man -- and I get it, he left behind these divine capabilities, yet he's still fully God. So it's hard for us to think of Jesus as not completely powerful. So kind of give us an understanding of how that can be true and Jesus can still be fully God.

Randy Frazee: Yeah. So if we're going to geek out for a moment for your readers, there's two different views on what's called Kenosis Christology, which is the idea of Jesus emptying himself and trying to identify the content of it. One which is very dangerous, and I would not go there, is called ontological kenosis, which means he actually changed his being -- "ontos" meaning being. He changed his being and he never returned back to it. The second one's called functional kenosis, which means he never changed his nature or being, but he simply functionally did not give him access to these three things for a period of 33 years. So we're taking the position that he purposely left it behind. I give a really simple illustration. One time when I went to dinner with some friends, and we had this wonderful evening, it was a little bit more expensive than normal. And I was planning on paying for the entire meal, only to discover that I left my wallet back at the house. I had the -- I'm still Randy Frazee, I still have the power to pay, but I didn't have access to it in that moment. As soon as I got home, I was able to write a check to give back to my friend -- thankfully he maintained himself as my friend -- for the entire amount of the dinner. And I think that's what Jesus actually did. Because here's the challenge, Jennifer. When you take fully God, who has omnipresence, omniscience, and omnipotence, and you combine that with humanity who doesn't have those things, you know, something has to give. And so all of my Christian life, we've always just left it in the realm of mystery, but in reality, if you go look back into church history, there are church fathers who embraced this idea that temporarily God emptied himself of everything but love to come to us to show us the way. He didn't change his being, he just temporary left them behind. Now that he's back with the Father again, he's got all three of those things. But while he was walking on the earth, the entire encounter was a trinitarian experience, from the incarnation to the baptism, to the crucifixion, and to the resurrection. And that's why in Ephesians Chapter 1, Paul says the same power that raised Jesus from the dead -- wait. I thought Jesus raised himself from the dead. No. The Holy Spirit raised himself from dead. If Jesus is God, why did he have to have the Holy Spirit raise himself from the dead? It's because Jesus left behind that during this period of time and had to rely on the Father to discover the will of the Father to know it, and the Holy Spirit to empower him to fulfill the will of the Father. And the same thing that Jesus experienced is true in our life. He was showing us the way.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow. Okay, that was a brilliant geek moment. And thank you for making it super accessible. That's really helpful, I know, to a lot of our listeners. And, you know, Randy, I think you have felt this way, too. It just makes you love Jesus more. What incredible kindness that he showed to us that he would allow himself to be vulnerable to empty himself. And so that's a good pattern understanding what it means to be emptied. Okay? But then in the second part of the book, you lead us to be aligned. Okay? So what does it mean to be aligned?

Randy Frazee: Yeah. So what we see in the life of Jesus, because he left behind his full knowledge. And we understand this because in Luke 2:52, it says that he was growing -- as a young boy, he was growing in wisdom and stature. Well, God cannot grow in wisdom, Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hmm-mm.

Randy Frazee: So what's happened here? It's either the Bible is not reliable, or Jesus is not God, or something else happened. And so I take the point of view that many do, and that is that Jesus temporarily left behind his full knowledge and he's having to rely on the Father. Remember when the disciples said, "Hey, when's the Kingdom coming?" Jesus said, Nobody knows. Not even I -- I don't even know. Only the Father. Well, if Jesus doesn't know, then he's either not God or something unique is going on. Or he's less than God the Father, which means you need to find a different religion besides evangelical Christianity, because that's not what we believe. So Jesus, when you -- just look at the Gospel of John. I laid out every time that Jesus said that he went to the Father to discover the Father's will. That he would not move, he would not say anything until he knew what the will of the Father was. And what Jesus is doing, this is showing us the way. As a matter of fact, when he invited us to pray, he said, "This is how you pray," when the disciples asked him. He says, "Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." He basically is signaling to the disciples that the number one thing you need to do is to align your life to the will of the Father. And the primary purpose of prayer is not to give God a To Do list for the day, but to listen and discover his will. Even when he gets to the Garden of Gethsemane, he says, "Not my will," you know. Wow, how did you have your own will? Well, he did. As a human, he had his own will. He said, "But your will be done." And Jesus was relentless in aligning his life to the will of the Father. He turns around and says if you want to tap into the power of God, you're going to have to align your life to the will of the Father. Because here's a big thing that Christians misunderstand, and that is the power of the Holy Spirit is reserved exclusively for the will of the Father. And one of the reasons we're often disappointed that God did not unleash his power in the answering of our prayer is because he won't unleash it for our will, but only for the will of the Father. And Jesus is saying that the primary objective of your life is to align your life to the will of the Father, which is better than your will on any day of the week and will always lead you to a better place than you have planned for yourself.

Jennifer Rothschild: Preach. Okay. That's good. All right. So if we want to align with God's will, then we've got to know God's will. So I noticed in the book you mentioned that you were mentored by Dallas Willard, which what an amazing privilege. And so on "Hearing God," Dallas Willard highly recommended the book -- I think it was called "The Secret of Guidance" by -- I don't remember his first name, but his last name is Meyers. Yeah?

Randy Frazee: F.B. Meyer, yeah, Frederick Meyer.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, F.B. Meyer. Okay. So Meyer described three different lights that we can use, that we can consult to help us know God's will. Do you remember what those were?

Randy Frazee: I sure do. And this is super helpful and super practical for your listeners. If the key to empowerment is to know the will of the Father, then how do I know the will of the Father? And there's basically three lights, three witnesses. The first one is the Word. You got to get into the Word and the Word will give you the will of God. The second one is the still small voice, or the Spirit. So the Spirit -- you remember in the Old Testament where we refer to that he's not coming as a loud voice, but rather a still small voice. And believers, if we're still enough, the Spirit will confirm with our Spirit the will of God consistent with the Word of God. And the last one is circumstances. It's the weakest of the three, but oftentimes God will align our circumstances to align with the still small voice we're hearing in the Word of God. And when all three of those line up together, then you have as good a confirmation as you can that this is the will of the Father and that you need to press forward. And I give several examples of that in the book. And in my own life, how it worked itself out in learning what the will of the Father was for me, in reality the betrayal, Jennifer, was -- while God did not cause it, God was using the betrayal to get me to the next season of my life. And without the betrayal, I would have never have gone to this next season of my life, which is really important. It's very much like the Joseph story in the Old Testament. When his brothers betrayed him, he ends up in second in command over all of Egypt. And when his brothers finally encounter him, what does he say? He says what you meant for evil -- what you meant for evil in your betrayal, God meant for good. And that is what I'm discovering about the will of -- and once I understood that the betrayal was something that mended to me, but that God was weaving that together so that I would become aware and align my life to his will, wow, I have been able to see more things happen in my life than I have ever in the season I'm in right now. But it took that understanding of aligning to the will of the Father.

Jennifer Rothschild: What a good affirmation for those who are in a struggle right now and think, well, maybe this is God's punishment or God's discipline. And who knows what it is. But the point is God uses all of that negativity, all of the difficulty, and sometimes that can be his merciful tool. And it just -- I think any time, Randy, we can experience an emptying and we can experience a greater alignment with the will and the Word of God, then there's just such freedom in our lives. And when I think about what you've written -- and you may have already answered this, but I think it bears repeating if I have asked it in another way. Because in your book, I realized that everything we need to know about living with God's strength with that emptying, in that alignment, we learn from the life of Jesus. You make that so clear. Because he had access to God's mighty strength, and so do we. So if you could boil it down, what would you say the source of Jesus' power really was, and, therefore, what is the source of our power?

Randy Frazee: Absolutely. It's the final section of the book. And on numerous occasions Jesus, not only at the resurrection -- which says it was the Holy Spirit who raised Him from the dead. In another encounter when the religious leaders are charging that Jesus is casting out demons and performing miracles in the power of Beelzebub, or the power of Satan, Jesus says that's ridiculous that Satan would be casting out his own. He said, "I do all of these miracles in the power of the Holy Spirit." So not only was Jesus raised from the dead, but every single one of the miracles and the healings of Jesus were sponsored by the empowerment of the Holy Spirit in his life. Once Jesus aligned his life to the will of the Father, which he did perpetually, the Holy Spirit was there to empower the impossible. And that's why your Philippians 4:13 passage is such an appropriate passage of Scripture for the listeners to really grab on to. And that is what's true with us today. Not only to empower us to overcome the betrayer and to forgive them, but to overcome depression and anxiety. And by overcoming, it doesn't mean that you're going to always be healed of it, it does mean that God's going to give you the power to see it through. Just like with your blindness, Jennifer, you've made that extremely clear that God gives you the power to see through it. And so this is what's available to the believer. But you cannot access this power until you go through this wonderful cathartic experience of emptying yourself of the illusion you're in control. I have to tell you, Jennifer, when you finally get to that place -- and it's not a one-time deal, by the way, it's an everyday occurrence, constantly saying --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Randy Frazee: -- I'm not in control here, I'm not in control. It's really a wonderful freeing experience to give that up and then aligning your life to the will of the Father. And once you do that, the Holy -- the third step is to finally the easiest step. Once you've emptied yourself with the illusion of control, once you've aligned your life to the will of the Father, all you need to do is not try harder, but yield harder to the power of the Holy Spirit within you. And amazing things, like you never thought would be done, will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen. All right. So then let me end this conversation the way you ended your book. Okay? This will be our last question. So here you are at the end of the book, you're crawling into bed again, but you're describing a very different place in life. So final question. Where is and who is Randy Frazee now?

Randy Frazee: Yeah. I have really good news for you. I talk in the last chapter of the book on Dancing on Mountains, you know, how I went to bed one night after I was coming out of this horrible experience, and instead of beating my pillow, I fluffed it up. I even sprayed a little bit of lavender spray on it. And I'm sitting down and I turn on HGTV. And I'm watching a House Hunters International and they're in Italy. And I was actually dreaming again about the future, and it just dawned on me, oh, my gosh, I have been healed. I have been recovered. The power of the Holy Spirit has given me life. And I'm now in a place where not only am I sleeping, not only am I not on medications -- and again, some people, they're going to need -- medications is not bad. I'm just -- my depression was episodic, not chronic, and I'm grateful for that. For people who are listening that theirs is more of a mental struggle or a continual chronic, God still gives you the strength. And in addition to that, Jennifer, I'm now in a place in my life and my ministry where I'm able to do things. I'm in Kansas City now and I'm able to do things. I just finished a meeting, and we were just all marveling how in the last three years these amazing things that God wants to do in cities across the country are happening. And Kansas City is one of the key cities, and God has me right in the middle of it. There is no way that I would have been here had I not been in this place. But not only the accomplishments of my life, but just -- I would have given anything to go back to the old Randy Frazee, just get me healthy again. I am not the old Randy Frazee anymore. God has done something new in me. I'm now living in this place of vulnerability before the Father that is feeling so freeing and so empowering. It's not in my own strength. But as Philippians 4:13 says, I can do all things through Christ who gives me strength.

K.C. Wright: This is really worth another listen or reading of the transcript. Or better yet, just read his book. I have loved how he made it really clear that vulnerability before God is freeing and empowering because it's no longer in our own strength, it really is through Christ that we can do all things.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know. And I also love the simplicity of emptied, aligned, and empowered. Emptied, aligned, and empowered. I mean, we can't get to empowered unless we're willing to empty ourselves and align ourselves with God's Holy Spirit and His will and His Word. It's just so good. So I told you I've read his book, and it's brilliant. I loved it. And I believe you need it, my friend.

K.C. Wright: You sure enough do. Well, how would you like to actually win it? If you want a copy, a free copy, of "His Mighty Strength," go to Jennifer's Insta profile. Here it is: @jennrothschild. Or we'll have a link to enter and a link to his book on the show notes now at 413podcast.com/165.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. And we'll also have links to some of the books that we mentioned in that conversation and some of the people we mentioned in that conversation with Randy. So, our friends, I just want you to know, if you're feeling powerless today, you know, you may feel that way, but Randy's story is living proof that you really can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

K.C. Wright: I can.

Jennifer and K.C.: And you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I think it was so interesting when he was talking about, you know, here he's writing a book about the power that raises Jesus from the dead and he can't raise himself off the couch. I just was like, that is just so where we live, isn't it?

K.C. Wright: Oh, my goodness, yeah. Yeah.