4:13 Podcast: Can I Move Past Cancel Culture to Meaningful Conversations? With Sean McDowell [Episode 336]

Sean McDowell: We tend to think that if we see the world as somebody does, we're affirming their beliefs and we're affirming their way of seeing the world. And we're so afraid today of affirming whatever somebody's view is on whatever the topic is, so we kind of stand at an arm's distance, rather than enter in, and realize that if we actually want to have a productive conversation, if we actually want to shape the way somebody sees the world, let's at least understand how they see the world first.

Jennifer Rothschild: Differences of opinion have always been part of life. It's not new to agree and to disagree about politics, social issues, religion, current events, and even sports. But when we used to disagree, it didn't used to cause a breakup between family and friends. But today we live in an argument culture that has led to almost a third of people reporting that they have stopped talking to a friend or family member just because they disagree. And nearly two-thirds of people say that they stay quiet about their actual beliefs because they're afraid of offending others or getting beat up online.

Well, today our guest, Sean McDowell, wants to help you end this stalemate. Christians are called to be God's ambassadors, which means we need to engage in a sincere and loving way with those around us, especially those who have different perspectives. So let's revive the art of meaningful conversations and can we just cancel this cancel culture, please. Let's go, KC.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hello, our people. We're so glad you're here. Me and KC are here in the podcast closet. Two friends, one topic, zero stress. And you know it by now, our goal is to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you're living, along with us, this "I Can" life.

You know, I was listening this morning, KC, to one of our podcasts.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And the guest -- I won't say -- well, I'll say who it is. Nicole Eunice. It was a while ago. She was so good. And it just reminded me of how blessed we are to have these great guests with us, these great teachers.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: I mean, I'm so thankful.

So if you are new to us, make sure you go back and listen to older episodes, because I'm telling you, it is some quality content, just like today is going to be. And by the way, I don't know if you know this, but we record typically on Tuesdays. Okay? No matter when you're listening, we always record the weekly episode on a Tuesday. But this week we are recording on a Thursday, and it's thrown off my whole week. So KC comes in and he was like, "Yeah, I was teaching at church last night." I was like, "What?" Oh, yeah. Wednesday, Thursday.

Okay. But you got to tell our people what happened at church last night for you.

KC Wright: My little cutie Elliana, she texts me while I'm working and she says, "Daddy, when you get a chance, could you maybe put some money on my Venmo?" Y'all, I've created a little diva. She loves style, she loves all things girly, which I completely support.

Jennifer Rothschild: Which I love that. You're a good girl dad.

KC Wright: But the only reason she wanted money on her Venmo was because she needed to get on this online place and buy some more clothes --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, that's hilarious.

KC Wright: -- which she doesn't need.

Jennifer Rothschild: Of course she doesn't.

KC Wright: But, I mean, we all do need a new outfit every once in a while.

Jennifer Rothschild: I was going to say, but she is a female. And we always need that one more thing.

KC Wright: Yeah. And I only have one, so I just spoil her --

Jennifer Rothschild: You should spoil her.

KC Wright: -- as much as I possibly can.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, within boundaries.

KC Wright: But she's a good girl.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, y'all, she's a precious girl. But can I just say, the funniest part of this story is not that Elly's wanting more money, but that she's texting you while you, the pastor of the church, is up there teaching the Bible. You're getting a text from your daughter saying, "Daddy, I need more money on my Venmo." I love that about her. That's precious. That also means she was not paying attention.

KC Wright: Yeah, she wasn't paying attention. But, hey, I want to jump back real quick just for a second. The power of the podcast and the power of these guests that we have, my mind was blown at the Fresh Grounded Faith I was recently at, where we had a line of these precious women telling me story after story of how a podcast or a guest had changed their life through the podcast.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know. Isn't that beautiful?

KC Wright: So it's just beautiful, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: It is. And so if you're being blessed, our 4:13ers, share the podcast. Please share the podcast. Leave a review. Those things help to spread the word and to kind of, you know, get us up a little higher in Apple or whomever's --

KC Wright: Right, right.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- whatever platform you're listening on. It just helps us to get a little more notice from them. So do what you can to help spread this word, because it is a blessing. It blesses me, like I said. I was just so blessed with what I was listening to this morning. It was an older one. But either way, it just doesn't matter. They're timeless, so...

Unlike -- not unlike, I should say, today. Wow.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Cancel culture. Okay, I'm glad we're having this conversation. And by the way, it is so warm, biblical, objective, Sean McDowell is. And it's so timely. You know, last year we -- ooh, the election. It's just been a season. It's been a season. And we want to be part the solution and bringing unity and not continue a problem that doesn't represent the heart of Christ.

So let's introduce Sean. You're going to love this conversation. In fact, I want to know what you think about it. So also when you leave a review, let us know what you think about it.

KC Wright: Sean McDowell is an Associate Professor of Christian Apologetics at Biola University. He is the best-selling author, editor, or co-author of more than 20 books He is the co-host of the Think Biblically Podcast.

So get ready for some really good stuff. Are you ready? Here we go. Here's Jennifer and Sean.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Sean, this is not news, because everybody knows that America is super polarized right now, but I'm not sure it's always been this way. I'm not a real student of history, but it doesn't appear on the surface to have always been this way. So if I'm correct, could you tell us, like, what is the deal? Why is it the case that now we are so polarized as a nation?

Sean McDowell: Well, we've certainly had moments of incredible polarization when you look at racial issues in our country, you look at the Vietnam War. But certainly in decades, which would really involve my lifetime, we have not seen this level of polarization. And I think it's moved from just disagreement to animosity and contempt and hatred for the other side. And we see this all over the map.

I think a few things have happened. I think, number one, there's a lot of hurting, broken people. And you've heard it said -- we've all heard it said, hurt people hurt people.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Sean McDowell: And we've seen just fatherlessness and anxiety and depression and loneliness raise. And if people don't learn as a whole, a society, to deal with that hurt in a healthy fashion, it's going to come out in an unhealthy fashion. I think that's a piece of it.

I think another piece is there's just so many issues in which there's division, not only within the church, but within the church and outside the church, issues like vaccines, critical race theory, gender studies. Whatever it is, there's so many issues up front that are just present to us and we're expected to weigh in on them. And now we're at the point, especially with social media, that if we don't weigh in on a certain number of issues, we're actually attacked for staying silent. So I think you add those factors together.

And then finally, we just lost the ability to talk with one another, to listen, to ask questions, to bridge the gaps. You put those factors together, and probably a few others, you kind of have a perfect storm of polarization.

Jennifer Rothschild: Gosh, well put. You are sadly correct. Just from an observation view, I totally agree with you. I wish it weren't the case.

And so in your book, you talk about a lot of things that -- I think especially as believers in Christ, who represent the Prince of Peace and the One who died to make us one, I think there's some things you talk about that are really helpful to us. So one of the things you talk about is myside bias. Okay. So tell us what that is.

Sean McDowell: Well, this helpfully came from my co-author, Tim Muehlhoff. He is a communications scholar and a PhD. And one thing he talked about is we all just inherently have deep biases that those who agree with us are correct. Now, we don't often walk around thinking, oh, this is myside bias, because it operates under the radar, so to speak. It's kind of the air we breathe, and we tend to surround ourselves with voices that agree with us and then demonize the other side.

So I've told people -- you know, recently somebody was asking me about my podcast, and they say, "Hey, help me follow it." I was like, "Sure." So I pulled up this person's podcast, and it was literally only people on one side of the issue. And if you only listen to people that agree with you in a certain fashion, it's going to foster this myside bias, which goes even further towards thinking that the other side is ridiculous.

So all of us are affected by this, where we read a publication, we tend to interpret it through our beliefs, our own worldview. And so sometimes it's subtle, sometimes it's more just overt and that we only listen to certain perspectives that agree with us and just affirm this perspective we already have.

Jennifer Rothschild: So that's so interesting because, you know, with the state of even politics in our country, in the U.S., there's sometimes when I will hear someone say something or interpret something, and I literally -- I will sit on the couch and listen and try to understand that side, and literally I just cannot come up with a way to understand how that person interpreted it so differently as I did.

Okay. So I wonder if what I'm experiencing -- yes, it might have a lot to do with myside bias, but I'm wondering also if it has anything to do with another concept you talk about, which is mind blindness. How do we become aware if we've got that, and especially as believers in Christ, like, how do we deal with that? What is it and how do we deal with it?

Sean McDowell: Well, I think one of the first things we have to do is be open to the fact that we could be wrong, that we have biases, that we have certain blinders on, and we have a limited perspective. I mean, it sounds obvious. But I wonder how many of us have really stopped and thought about our own weaknesses first, and limitations, as opposed to pointing those out in others, which is our natural tendency. And I think the way around this is, you're right, to sometimes just slow down, think about it from a different perspective, try to understand where somebody's coming from charitably. Now, there are times where I read stuff and I conclude -- when it's done, I go, okay, that person is just profoundly mistaken. And that's okay if I've done my due diligence to really understand where they're coming from.

And one of the things we argue in the book, it's not only important to try to understand intellectually where somebody's coming from, but emotively to try to feel what they feel is powerful. And so I just -- I mean, if you looked at my podcast list, I listen to people on all sides of issues on politics. I have to do that on sports just to get a different perspective on sports that I enjoy following. I do that on worldviews and on theology and YouTube channels I follow. So we just kind of have to be aware of our own weaknesses. We have to force ourself to watch and listen to ideas differently.

But also, it's one thing to just listen to a podcast. It's another thing to sit down with somebody face to face, and you look them in the eyes and we ask them questions and try to see the world and feel the world through the lens that they do. That can really minimally at least help us have charity towards somebody in the way we interact with them, even if when it's all said and done, we see the world differently.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know, I talk about, Sean, this concept -- I call it sitting next to somebody at the table. Because sometimes before we sit across from them -- this is just my experience -- and I'm confronting or looking eye to eye, I need to sit next to them and see the world from the perspective they do. What are they looking at? I want to try to view it the way they do, even if it's hard for me to understand and if I disagree. But until I really see it like they see it sitting next to them at the table so that our eyes are looking the same direction, sometimes I'm not afraid I'm capable to really have a good conversation because I haven't tried to see the world the way they do. And I think that's what you're talking about, kind of that emotive, empathetic, like, what do they feel. What was their life experience that caused them to become an adherent to a certain opinion or stance? That's helped me. And to me, in some ways it's perspective taking.

So I don't see that we do that a lot as a default. I've had to train myself. I mean, I got truly convicted about it, and so I've trained myself through the grace of God to be more of a perspective taker, try to feel what they're feeling, see what they're seeing. But I don't think that's default for our human nature. And so I'm curious, why do you think, even in the body of Christ, we're not good at perspective taking?

Sean McDowell: Oh, gosh, that's a good question. I think -- Proverbs 18:20 says, "The first to speak in court sounds right until the cross-examination begins." I think we're naturally -- as a whole, we take the easy route out. We're lazy. We would rather have somebody affirm what we already believe than challenge us to reconsider. I think it can be painful to change a perspective on something. It could cost us a relationship at times. Depending on how significant it is, it could cost us our reputation. It takes work to do that, and that's just not typically human nature.

So I like the term that you use, "perspective taking," by the way, Jennifer, because that's really -- kind of the heart of our book is perspective taking. And it's an incarnational way of seeing the world. So God takes on human flesh through the person of Jesus. And we're told in Hebrew, we have a High Priest who sees the world as we do. Who was tempted as we were in every way, and yet without sin. So it's like this God who condescends, so to speak, to take on and see the world literally in a sense through human eyes, so to speak. And the question is, can we do the same? What would it mean to just step into somebody else's perspective and really try to see the world as they do?

And I think one barrier to it, Jennifer, is that we tend to think that if we see the world as somebody does, we're affirming their beliefs and we're affirming their way of seeing the world. And we're so afraid today of affirming whatever somebody's view is on whatever the topic is, so we kind of stand at an arm's distance rather than enter in and realize that if we actually want to have a productive conversation, if we actually want to shape the way somebody sees the world, let's at least understand how they see the world first.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know, it reminds me -- I just had that picture in my mind -- I don't know if you've been in a big city, I'm sure all of our listeners have -- where there's one of those street preachers on the corner screaming at everyone.

Sean McDowell: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: In some ways I feel like that's kind of what we do when we don't enter into a relationship, and that really -- to me, everything I'm hearing you say, it kind of lands on relationship, or the lack of them, you know. So you talk about in your book a relational health crisis. So let's talk about that. What that is, in your opinion, where it comes from, and I would like to know how you think maybe social media has fueled it.

Sean McDowell: Well, let me make a contrast that might help people. We make a distinction in the book between kind of a transmission view of communication, which is -- you gave an example of a street preacher. This is somebody who has information, delivers it to the other in a one-way fashion, kind of top-down. Now, there's still a time and place for this. We could argue that this podcast is a kind of transmission.

Jennifer Rothschild: Sure.

Sean McDowell: We're transmitting information. So nobody's saying we don't need that kind of communication anymore. But there's a ritual kind of communication where you enter into relationship with somebody and it -- kind of a give-and-take conversation back and forth. That's a different kind of means of communication.

Now, to answer your question, I think -- I think social media is the elephant in the room that has completely broken down. It's not that social media has the power to do this, but we allow social media and smartphones to do this to us. So I love social media, and I use it, and I've seen people do it well. But I don't think we really give a lot of thought to how it shapes and affects our communication. So think about like, say -- I don't know, like Twitter or something, for example. When it comes to communication, if we were going to put it simply, there's the sender who has the idea, there's the message that's getting transmitted, and then there's the receiver. So sender, message, receiver. Most people, I think Christians including, get on social media or use their smartphones, whatever, and communicate only thinking about themselves, the sender, and the message they want to send rather than asking the question what's going to help this best be received? What's going to create a communication climate where this person might actually consider this idea and we have a conversation, rather it's shaming, rather it's making a point to make ourselves feel good, rather it's judging. It really is kind of a one-way top-down communication where people are not thinking about what's going to make it best received.

And the Bible has a lot to say about this. You know, there's passages like a soft word turns away wrath or, in Proverbs 15, you know, a soft word breaks a bone. We don't think about how can I communicate in a way that actually fosters positive communication, lowers down just the contempt and the rhetoric. We don't think that way because we haven't really been trained how to do it effectively.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, and also -- and I'm not speaking about anyone but me -- if I engage in that, it's because it's all about me and I'm either just wanting to self-promote or self-protect. And when you look at Christ and the ways of Jesus, that was all abandoned for the recipient, for us. So that's a good word, it really is.

And as you're saying that, I think about it. You know, often when we enter into conversation, whether it's on social media or in real life, we have the goal of proving that we are right. I got this, I understand this, all you other peons are wrong, so I am going to enter into communication to prove my point. And obviously when I say it like that, we all know no, no, no, no, no, that's not the goal. We know it's not the right goal, but it seems to be a motivating goal for many of us. So what should be the true goal for each of us, especially as believers in Christ, when it comes to communication?

Sean McDowell: Well, I think the first goal is to understand. My dad said to me years ago -- and I think others have said something similar -- he said it's more important to understand than it is to be understood. There's a proverb that says -- it might be in Chapter 23 -- that says, you know, by wisdom a house is built and by understanding it is established. I mean, in many cases we tend to think, well, the idea of communication is to change somebody's mind. Well, of course, in evangelism, that's the goal of evangelism. So different kinds of communication can have different goals, right? Sometimes I want to learn, sometimes I want to clarify, sometimes I want to persuade. And that's okay. It doesn't have to all be the same. But step number one is really to understand.

And I just realized the older I get, how many times I've answered questions that people have asked me where I kind of answered the wrong question because I didn't take the time to ask further questions and actually understand. So it really doesn't minister and help somebody if I answer the question that I want them to say or the question that I would prefer to answer rather than the question they're really answering. I think that's one reason why.

And I think we've lost just the power of understanding. I mean, it was M. Scott Peck who said the best way to love someone is to listen. So what if a huge part of our thinking was, you know -- let me frame it this way. Here's something that goes through my mind, Jennifer. Sometimes I think, you know, when somebody's hurting or they're broken or they're confused, what would it take for their next thought to be, I need to find a Christian, because a Christian will listen and will care about truth. I don't think that's how most people probably view Christians. I could be wrong about that, but I don't think that's probably our reputation. And so I just think let's communicate in a way that we have to speak truth. I would never say communicate in a way to compromise and soften truth.

But let's think about the means we communicate, the tone we communicate with. Are we communicating with kindness and charity and does our communication communicate to the world that we are known by our love? I mean, that's the goal, right? When it's all said and done, that they are known by their love. And does our communication in person, on social media, whatever platform it is, communicate love? That's the goal, and I think it really begins with understanding.

Jennifer Rothschild: I agree. I think of my grandmother, my sweet Southern mama. She used to say -- because I would be very dramatic as a little girl -- "I hate so and so," you know. And she'd say, "Honey, you do not hate that person, you hate their ways. You love that person because Jesus does, you just hate their ways."

And, you know, there is a simplicity about being like Christ and loving those whom he loved, which was all of us unconditionally. And you're right, it's a weird nuance, though, Sean, that we have, like, Oh, well, if I'm going to be a person of truth, how can I show grace? And Jesus was 100% grace and 100% truth. And it's only through his spirit, when we're humble enough to walk with him, that we figure it out. No. Sorry. That we are led. I don't know that we ever figure it out because it's so counterintuitive.

I love your work. I love this, Sean. And you're such an excellent communicator. I mean, I see the gift of God in you, and I'm so thankful. So we're going to get to our last question. Because you've already sprinkled in some very reasonable and practical ways to do this. But in Section 2 -- I think it's Section 2, yeah, of your book -- you give very practical tips of how to do this. So leave us with some tips, or a process perhaps, that we could adopt so that we can really enter into meaningful conversations so that we become Christians who are known by our love and we end this stalemate.

Sean McDowell: Well, here's a few practical tips that might help. First off, follow people who do this well. Follow people who communicate, that don't just try to provoke, don't just try to get clicks and re-tweets and views, but people who try to get clear communication and actually care about truth. I think the -- a friend of ours who wrote our forward, Justin Brierley, is a wonderful example of this. He's an incredible example of talking to people who view the world differently. It's always respectful, it's always gracious. And so step number one is just find people who do it well.

And then number two, something else you said earlier in this interview, Jennifer, you said this is something you had to practice seeing the world as other people do. This is a skill we develop. Like lifting weights or cooking or doing anything else, it's a skill. And it takes time to do this. So we actually recommend having conversations and then kind of afterwards debriefing certain conversation. What went well? What would I do differently next time?

You know, the third thing is just to also develop the skill of asking good questions. We have record in the Gospels of Jesus asking 341 questions. Of Paul, we have 262. I think Jesus was asked 183 questions, and he directly answered 7. So if you want to be a good communicator, follow people who do it well, practice it, and develop the skill of asking good questions, and just really care more about understanding than about trying to win some kind of argument. And I do this by trying to find common ground with people, understanding, and then just pointing out where we differ. These are really simple basic kinds of communication things that I think all of us can do.

Now, by the way, it's not that everybody is open to having a conversation when we do these things. We point out in the book you got to have the right time and you got to have the right place. And there's just some people who are not eager to have these conversations. I can't force them to do so. I mean, Jesus let the rich young ruler walk away. But I think there's a whole lot of people in the right time, in the right way, if we listen, we ask good questions, we show empathy, sit by him the way that you did, who are willing to talk about some of the most sensitive, thorny, divisive issues today, and that's an act of love and charity that Christians can do.

KC Wright: What great advice. Find people who do this well and follow them. Practice seeing the world as others do. He said practice it. I think he said practice, because it takes time.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, he did say practice.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, yeah, because it's a practice. We need to get better at it. Yeah.

KC Wright: Right, right.

We will have, by the way, the transcript of this entire conversation at 413podcast.com/336, because you are going to want to review this one for sure. And we will link you to his book right there as well. That's 413podcast.com/336.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, there was so much good stuff there. That's why you want to look at that transcript. But I will tell you this. My takeaway is that we want to develop the skill of asking good questions. Like, care more about understanding the person than winning the argument. I think it's interesting, we can always find common ground if we seek it. I used to always say -- well, I still say it, KC -- that I can either prove myself right, or prove my intelligence, or prove my debating skills, or whatever, I can prove something or I can improve a relationship. And it's hard to do both at the same time. So I'm always asking the Lord, "Help me to improve this relationship and love well."

Well, we need to be people who are full of grace, full of truth, like Jesus. So may we love well and listen well and ask good questions and be part of the solution, not the problem. We can because we can do all things through Christ, who gives us strength. I can.

KC Wright: I can.

Jennifer and KC: And you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know what I will tell you, KC? I was thinking when you said that about Elly and her online shopping, my phone went out a while back and I had to get a new one, so I was without it for three days. Can I just say, I saved so much money on Amazon those three days. It revealed to me that I might need you to send more money to my Venmo account. That's all I'm saying.