4:13 Podcast: Can I Transform Self-Sabotage Into Spiritual Success? With Dr. Alison Cook [Episode 323]

Dr. Alison Cook: Part of the gift we give to ourselves is to just take those 20 minutes when we have a minute, when we're taking a walk, with God to go, God, what is it? I don't know. Here's what happened. I feel yucky. You know, what is it? And if you think about when we're parenting our own kids, the work that we take when a young child comes home from school and they're mad -- you know, the work that we do as parents to be like, What's going on? What happened? Help me understand. It's like we have to do that with ourselves.

Jennifer Rothschild: Psychologist and best-selling author Dr. Alison Cook wants to help you through the conflicting thoughts and feelings that keep you stuck. Today on The 4:13 Alison is back, and she is going to show you how to name, tame, and transform those unruly thoughts and feelings into clear solutions. So get ready to identify false guilt, and then get rid of it, of course; learn how to trade mental chaos for curiosity; and break those cycles of defeat once and for all. This is some good stuff today, our people, so let's get unstuck. The doctor is in. Come on, K.C.

K.C. Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hello, our dear ones. We're so glad you're here. I'm Jennifer, and that was K.C. It's just two friends and one topic and zero stress here in the podcast closet. So wonder how you're doing today. If you've got any stress, why don't you just press pause on the stress, hang out with us for about 30 minutes. You can pick your stress back up if you really want to. But I have a feeling that after spending some time together, that stress may just disappear, or at least be put in its place.

I'm about to leave, by the way. I told you last week I was flying to Atlanta, so that's where I'm heading. And then next weekend I'll be in Bloomington, Illinois, for a Fresh Grounded Faith, and there is still time for you to come if you're in the Bloomington, Illinois, area. It's going to be so good.

But right now, I got to tell you, I'm just happy that I'm sitting here with my friend K.C., and I am drinking -- did you notice this, K.C.?

K.C. Wright: Uh-huh.

Jennifer Rothschild: Out of my Wonder Woman.

K.C. Wright: As soon as I walked in, I said, Oh, she's using the mug I gave her.

Jennifer Rothschild: You gave me that mug --

K.C. Wright: I sure did.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- for my birthday last year. It was a milestone birthday last December. And this mug says "Wonder Woman," and I drink out of it all the time, especially when I need to feel like Wonder Woman.

K.C. Wright: You are Wonder Woman.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, you know what else he gave me? I don't know if I told you guys this. Because like I said, it was a milestone birthday, I can't remember much now. But he gave me a Wonder Woman mug, and then, my people, an Aslan. Like -- I don't know if -- it's just a little brass kind of -- it could be a paperweight. But the point of it is, it holds the sword, like Peter's sword, which is a letter opener. Or a weapon if you come into my office and you misbehave. And it has C. S. Lewis quotes on it. Y'all, it is the coolest thing I have ever -- I show everybody when they come in my office. I love it so much, K.C. It is one of my treasures.

K.C. Wright: Well, you're a hard one to buy for because -- what do you buy someone who has -- I mean, you don't really need anything.

Jennifer Rothschild: Nah, I don't need anything. I like things simple anyway.

K.C. Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: But that was a score, like, big score. Phil was like, "Wow, you really love that," like you one-upped him. I don't think he liked that. I was like, "Honey, up your game. Up your game." Maybe you can be his gift buyer.

But didn't you find it, like, on -- no. Where did you find it?

K.C. Wright: eBay.

Jennifer Rothschild: It was eBay.

K.C. Wright: eBay, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. I love it. It's one of the funnest things.

But anyway, I tell K.C. every time I drink out of my Wonder Woman mug, I pray for him --

K.C. Wright: Thank you.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- because it reminds me of him. Which is a really cool thing about mugs. But do you have any special mug you use, K.C.?

K.C. Wright: Oh, goodness.

Jennifer Rothschild: Or ones that you like, like that have fun sayings on them?

K.C. Wright: I have so many mugs, I think my -- one morning my cabinet's just going to fall off the wall.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know. I have to always get rid of some. Like, every couple of months, I -- Goodwill has a fun collection from me.

K.C. Wright: My buddy just recently came back from Hawaii, him and his wife, and they brought me a mug. And it's a blue -- it's my favorite color blue, a sky blue, and it says something like "Hiking Hawaii." And there's just something about being -- where I live, my back door is a cow pasture.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

K.C. Wright: And you're thinking, but mentally I'm hiking Hawaii right now.

Jennifer Rothschild: See, that's healthy. I love that.

Well, I got -- so I shouldn't say this out loud, but here I am, I'm going to. So I found some mugs on clearance, and I got three of them because they had funny sayings. And I was like, I will find somebody to give these to. One of them -- I just can't find the right person to give it to. Or, you know, the right situation.

K.C. Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: It says, "Not Listening," which I think is hilarious. Another one says, "I Think I Will Put This Emotion Off To A Better Time." And I love that one. I'm like, well, who can I give that to, and when? But anyway, they're so fun. I love mugs. But then -- until I don't, like you said. And then when your cabinet's about to, you know, vomit mugs, you're like, okay.

K.C. Wright: Well, then every once in a while you do have to do, like, an inventory check.

Jennifer Rothschild: You do.

K.C. Wright: Like, okay, I don't drink out of these.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

K.C. Wright: And I have no more room for any more new mugs, and so...

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. Well, and I am kind of picky about the handle. See my Wonder Woman?

K.C. Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: It has room for four fingers.

K.C. Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: I don't like the pretty little tiny that you can only put one or two fingers in the handle. You got to have...

Oh, my friends, there are so many issues. We have so many issues. It's a good thing we have a psychologist with us.

K.C. Wright: Speaking of mugs and speaking of what we put in our mugs, I was just telling her this morning that I tried to wean myself off of coffee, and so I even gave away my one-cuppers. And I had two one-cupper machines, and I gave them away.

Jennifer Rothschild: You gave them both away?

K.C. Wright: I gave them away --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, K.C.

K.C. Wright: -- saying, You know what? I'm done with coffee. And so if I'm going to be done with it, I got to get rid of the coffee. And so I set myself up a little tea corner in my kitchen. I'm going to be a tea man. I'm going to have this beautiful hot tea in the morning. That lasted a week until I ran -- I ran back to coffee. And so I just try to do one to two cups a day.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

K.C. Wright: But one day in my mind -- but, see, I'm so crazy in my mind, I think I can lose 40 pounds in two weeks. But one day in my mind, I'm like, one day I'm going to be free of this coffee.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. I just gave up on it, like, gave up on being free of it. Like, I'm going to drink it until, like, a doctor says, "Jennifer, one more cup and you will die," and then I'll be like, "Okay." But until then, I'm going out good.

K.C. Wright: It's my one thing in life. And when you go on your travels, you always bring me back coffee.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know.

K.C. Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know. Listen --

K.C. Wright: And I love all the coffee.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know. And you know what? You can get some good decaf if you really need to. But sometimes, depending on the tea, it has as much caffeine as it has -- as coffee does. You have to be careful.

K.C. Wright: I have coffee and oil in my kitchen right now from Italy because of you.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know. You need to drink them. Consume them. That'll give me a reason to go back.

All right, our people, we've got somebody speaking back with us, and that is Dr. Alison Cook. I loved the last time she was with us. I know you did too. So let's -- but some of you, she may be new to you, so let's introduce her.

K.C. Wright: Dr. Alison Cook is a therapist and host of the Best of You Podcast. She's originally from Wyoming. Dr. Alison studied at Dartmouth College for her undergraduate, and then the University of Denver for her Ph.D. She is certified in eternal family systems therapy and is the author of the books "The Best Of You" and co-author of "Boundaries For Your Soul." We're so happy, thrilled, glad -- throw in another word there that's exciting.

Jennifer Rothschild: Exuberant.

K.C. Wright: Shoot the confetti cannon that she's back with us today, because we always, always -- and I mean this, especially me -- need therapy.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. And that is the truest thing that has been said so far.

K.C. Wright: Here's Jennifer and Alison. This is going to be so good. Pull up a chair. There's room at the table for you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Alison, I'm so happy we get to have you back on the -- well, now you're an official a 4:13er. Okay? I was going to say to have you back on The 4:13, but, like, you are a 4:13er now. So I'm glad you're back. And I'm glad we get to talk about this new book, because your book -- I love the title -- "I Shouldn't Feel This Way." And I love the title because most of us have said this to ourselves, or at least thought it. So let's start with that. Where does this come from? Like, is this okay? Is it right?

Dr. Alison Cook: Yeah, that's so true. That's where I got the title of the book, Jennifer, is I -- this is, you know, a refrain I say to myself, you know, a million times a day, at least certainly for most of my adult life, so...

You know, where I think it comes from -- and again, just studying it in myself, studying it in most of the women that I work with, is, number one, we don't understand emotions. And that's true not only in faith communities, but honestly, our understanding of emotions in the field of psychology is pretty new. You know, a lot of us weren't raised in homes where we had candid, you know, constructive conversations around emotions. And so as a result, we -- and especially if you're of a certain generation. You know, it's changed a little bit. And in some ways, we've overcorrected culturally, right? So now it's like emotions are -- you know, we should validate every single emotion that we have. And that's not healthy either.

But most of us were raised in homes where emotions kind of came out sideways or under the surface, or we tried to shove them away, as opposed to really honoring the emotional complexity that God that gave us, that he designed us to have. Emotions -- if you think about music, you think about an instrument that you pick up, a violin or a piano. There's a complexity to it. They can come out really beautiful, the melody can come out beautifully; it can come out discordant. You know, we have a beautiful instrument that God gave us, and part of that is our emotions.

We see so many emotions in Jesus. He showed a lot of emotions. And so learning how to lead our emotions and honor our emotions without doing harm out of our emotions is the work. I'm convinced this is the work of spiritual formation and mental health. It's both.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Well, and when one is good, it tends to lead to the other being good too, that spiritual transformation.

Dr. Alison Cook: That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know it's interesting, I think -- as I was listening to you, I thought, okay, so why -- as I study my heart, why do I do that? Well, part of it is I'm afraid to feel something I can't fix. It makes me feel out of control. Or it's just -- like, you used the word "complicated." And so in your book, you do talk about this idea of being tangled, which is a good picture, tangled in mixed emotions. And so why do we struggle with conflicted feelings?

Dr. Alison Cook: Yeah. Again, it's part of our human condition. You know, the research shows, when they study it, we have emotions throughout our days, almost 90% of our days, even when we're sleeping. And often we experience more emotion than one. We experience emotions simultaneously. That word "complex." Emotions are complex. And I agree with you, sometimes we just don't want to take the time. And I think about a necklace that gets a knot in it, a tangled-up knot. There's no way through that knot but to slow yourself down, get really careful and gentle with the necklace, and tease out the threads that are tying up that knot. And that's what we have to learn to do with ourselves and our emotions. We have to slow ourselves down. Sometimes we don't want to do that. That's why I say this is a spiritual practice of tending to these tangled-up knots.

But, you know, to your question, something happens that's hard. Relationships are hard. Our kids do something or our spouse does something and we're mad, and then we're mad at ourselves for being mad, you know?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Dr. Alison Cook: Or we're sad or we're really disappointed, but then we're mad that we feel sad because we don't want to feel sad, you know. And so we get these knots. And we have to learn -- a lot of what I'm walking people through in the book is this process, these three practices of just learning. And it really -- I call them practices. This isn't a one-time thing. It's every single day learning to notice the knots, notice, oh, there's a tangle. I don't have time to deal with it right now, but I'm going to need to come back to it. Frame it. What's it about? And then take steps on behalf of what we notice, because those emotions are usually giving us a cue to something that needs our attention.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So I'm loving this because -- I love how concrete you made this. Because I don't know many women who would have a tangled-up necklace and decide to just wear it. Oh, well, whatever, I'll just wear it as is.

Dr. Alison Cook: Exactly.

Jennifer Rothschild: We will relentlessly pursue getting that knot out. But we don't do that with our emotions. So you just suggested these three different -- maybe I'll call them strategies. So let me just go to that very clearly. So when we're tangled up, I think you just gave us some clues of how we can uncover these mixed emotions that often lead us to this confusion. So the first is to notice, I guess?

Dr. Alison Cook: Yeah. I call it naming.

Jennifer Rothschild: Naming. Okay.

Dr. Alison Cook: But as part of naming -- right? -- as part of naming. So that's why, again, these are practices. We want to become namers. And I talk about this in the book. To become a namer is to become someone who faces what's true very honestly. Without shame, without criticism. This is true for ourselves, it's true for other people. We name things. And so, for example, with the necklace, we say, Oh, there's a knot. And to your point, we're not fixing it yet. Maybe I don't have time to fix the knot today, you know, or I don't know how to fix the knot. But to become a namer when it comes to our emotions is to become someone who says, Oh, I'm struggling. Oh, there's a complicated knot of emotions with this issue.

When I name that, we bring some definition to it. We bring some meaning to it. We bring some order to it. Then we can go about the process of figuring it out. But that first thing, we have to notice. We have to just become aware of what are the cues that -- and the reason I say to people is you may not know what the exact emotion is yet. The first thing you might notice a name is, oh, this is complicated, you know, or -- and that was where the title for me -- so often, the first thing I have to notice -- because I'm such a guilt tripper, an inner guilt tripper about emotions -- is, oh, I don't want to feel this way. I don't want to, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right.

Dr. Alison Cook: And so I learned how to notice that as a naming of, oh, I -- you know, I shouldn't feel this way becomes a naming of, oh, I need to do some naming work. You know, I'm good. There's a knot. I'm going to need to go through this. And it's a gentle way of just putting yourself on the path toward clarity, you know, the path toward untangling it. So that's the first step.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So -- well, first of all, before I even acknowledge anything you said, what I do want to acknowledge is I love, Alison, that you are like a professional. Like, you're dealing with feelings all day long and you're saying you still struggle with your own and having to practice these things that you're teaching others to practice. And that should be an encouragement to all of us --

Dr. Alison Cook: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- that it is, it's a journey.

One of the things I would be curious about, Alison, is -- so let's say I will have an emotional reaction. Anger. And so my tendency would be to say, Ooh, I was just angry. Bad girl. Shouldn't be angry. Whatever. Okay? But if I begin to name that emotion, what I really can realize is, wait a minute, is that really anger or did it just manifest as anger? Is it really fear that showed up that way? So kind of help us -- how do we -- when we're naming something, how do we name it correctly, I guess is the word?

Dr. Alison Cook: Yeah. It's a process, is what I would say. You know, and that's -- some of that, that's where -- I think of the fruit of the spirit, Jennifer, and I think about patience. There's a being patient with the process ourselves, which is why I'm -- that's why I always say start with, you know, there is something here. I don't know what it is yet. That's a big part of the practice.

And then it's -- you know, I take the reader through so many kind of -- it's almost like becoming a detective of your own self. But so many questions to ask yourself. And so it's like what -- and again, it's like getting at the facts. What actually happened? What actually happened? Sometimes we have to look to the events to back engineer into our own feelings. So for example, I just opened up my social media app. That's what happened. That is literally what happened. And what did I feel as a result of that? Mad or frustrated or down on myself or jealous. Back-ending into that, that's the work of naming.

Or I was in the car pickup lane at school and I saw some other moms, blah, blah, blah, and then I started to feel this bad feeling inside. Sometimes that -- you know, it's just like this bad feeling. What is that bad feeling? And we're afraid to name it -- right? -- because we don't want to name the stuff that we don't want to see.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, right.

Dr. Alison Cook: So if I'm really honest, it's like, well, I felt frustrated or I felt petty. And sometimes I feel something really justifiable. I feel mad because those people have left me out, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Alison Cook: Whatever it is, we're trying to teach ourselves to be a naming partner with God. And I use this thing, I tell people -- it's called comma God. It's like bringing God into it. God, I notice this. You know, help me find the right words for it. Help me find the right name for it. And I take the reader -- like Lisa Jo Baker endorsed the book so kindly, and she called it WebMD for your emotions. There's so many. Because there is, there's so many different things we might be feeling. And part of the gift we give to ourselves is to just take those 20 minutes when we have a minute, when we're taking a walk, with God to go, God, what is it? I don't know. Here's what happened. I feel yucky. You know, what is it?

And if you think about when we're parenting our own kids, the work that we take when a young child comes home from school and they're mad about -- you know, the work that we do as parents to be like, What's going on? What happened? Help me understand. It's like we have to do that with ourselves.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, and I love that you said we become a naming partner with God.

Dr. Alison Cook: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's such a cool concept, Alison. And for those who are more intimidated by acknowledging or feeling their own feelings, knowing you're not in it alone is a beautiful thing, becoming a naming partner with God.

And you said something else I want to circle back to and hone in on, because you talk about in your book the ability to distinguish fact from fiction, especially, like, in relationships. So get specific. Like, what does that mean? And give us some practical ways that we can kind of do that, parse fact from fiction.

Dr. Alison Cook: Yeah. So when we become namers -- and I always say name what's hard. Start with yourself, right? We're always tempted to start by, well, she's the problem -- right? -- or he's the --

Jennifer Rothschild: I don't know what you're talking about.

Dr. Alison Cook: And I want to say it may well be that they are the problem. But start with yourself, right? You know, that's sort of the Jesus -- you know, let's start with yourself first. So naming what's hard. When you become a namer and you really confront what's true and what's hard on soul, you do gain more clarity, you do gain more discernment. Because when we do this work with God, when we notice, Man, I'm mad, God. I wish I wasn't, but I am -- you know, Jesus says the truth sets us free. That's true. It's becoming a naming partner. It's becoming honest. We do start to notice things in our environment. We do start to become like a detective.

And so the second practice is what I call framing, right? Which isn't this glamorous word, but I think it's probably the most important practice in the book. Becoming a namer, we wanted to because there's freedom in it. This is what I feel, this is what's happening. Framing is the harder, deeper work of this sort of reflective process. And it's really a process of discernment. And I give people in this chapter the whole frame acronym, all these questions where you're trying to discern the truth. And so this is where we begin to discern fact from fiction.

And so let me give you an example, Jennifer. So let's use this example of anger. Because especially most women, we don't like feeling angry.

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

Dr. Alison Cook: And here's the thing with anger. I feel it, right? Something happens. I feel angry. One situation, let's say my adult child sparks anger inside of me. Right? So I feel angry. Now, when I get it into the step of framing, it's like, what are the facts? What happened? Well, in one instance, for example, let's say my adult child says to me, you know, My husband and I are thinking of moving out of state. We're going to move across the country. And that makes me angry. But she hasn't done anything wrong. She hasn't done anything wrong, right? So the way that I'm going to act on behalf of my anger is going to be very different, right? The way I frame it, the way I discern the facts.

But let's say there's a situation where I'm really angry and my adult child or a parent or a family member, a friend has done something very harmful. Maybe they've lied to me. Maybe I found out they've gossiped about me or slandered me, right? Something really painful. And I'm mad, right? When I get to those facts -- I have the emotion. I get to the facts of what actually happened. I'm discerning, right? Is the anger something that is really mine to own? Because what this person did isn't actually something wrong. I don't like the way it makes me feel. You know, maybe my husband pointed out something in a very kind way, that I have lettuce in my teeth, and that made me mad. But actually, I kind of needed to know that, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right.

Dr. Alison Cook: So he hasn't actually done anything wrong. And this is something -- I think it's a lost art in our culture today, right? We're just so quick to go, "You're mean," or whatever, you know, blame the other person, or take it on all ourselves. So this discerning a fact from fiction, what actually happened.

But there are those situations where someone's doing something really toxic or doing something that's really harmful, and that anger is a cue you need to set a boundary. You need to protect yourself, right? And so this process, this practice of framing, of really with God, really with God giving yourself the time. I call it creating these pauses, these places in between, where you've had a big emotion and you're not quite ready to do the third step, which is take action, brave, brave action. You've got to create this place in between, whether it's on a daily walk, whether it's on your commute home from work, whether you schedule a therapy appointment, you know, whether you take a week. You know, there are big and little opportunities to do this to go, What is really happening here? What are the facts? You know, how do I distinguish my own responses from the reality of what's happening?

And I go through the book all sorts of like when it is toxic, how do I know? What are the cues? Again, that's that WebMD. You know, what if it's just I'm mad at this person. They haven't done anything wrong, it's just who they are is sometimes hurtful to me because they're human. There's so many different things that can evoke those emotional triggers inside of us, so we all have to become experts at this discernment, this framing, so that when we do take action, we're doing it aligned with what's true.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, this is really good. And it's almost like you just need to sit down with yourself, be honest with yourself and get to know yourself. And sometimes we speed through our lives and we don't take the time to do so, and so we keep propagating these maybe harmful emotional habits that hurt us. But they hurt our relationships too.

And so one of the things -- this is slightly random, but I have always been curious about this. And this conversation reminds me of it, so I'm going to ask you. I don't know if you have an answer. But why is it in America at least, why -- I don't know that I have ever had anyone cry in front of me that hasn't apologized. "Oh, I'm so sorry." They start crying and they immediately stop and say, "I'm so sorry." And so it reminds me of this I-shouldn't-feel-this-way concept. Do you know why -- is that unique to America, to the West? And what's up with that?

Dr. Alison Cook: That's a great question. I don't know. I think that's a great question. I do think there are parts of the world that honor emotions, that honor the body, you know, the physicality of expressing emotions. That's something we've lost in this country. I do think there are other parts of the world that do it better. When we think about the Bible and David dancing before the Lord, there's this sense -- right? -- of that sheer -- just expressing joy with all his being literally. And that also applies to grief. When you think about just the lament, the whole body lament that we see in the Bible, that it was normal. It is normal.

And you're right, we have lost a lot of that in Western civilization and Western America, where we prioritize sort of rationality and logic. And even in faith communities, "I know God is good." We go so quickly. It's called spiritual bypassing, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my goodness. Yes.

Dr. Alison Cook: Whenever I post about this on social media, it just goes crazy because -- you know, it's true, God is good. It doesn't matter. We still have the emotional experience of --

Jennifer Rothschild: We can still cry.

Dr. Alison Cook: -- this is so hard. I hate this. Jesus had that, right? Jesus had that anguish. And so, yeah, it is just -- it's something that I think we have to unlearn. The more we're going to honor the emotions with us, the more we're going to have to change our friendships and show up more honestly, "Man, I'm hurting today," and not apologize for that. This is actually normal because probably you are too, you know.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right? That's so interesting. And I think the process that you're already explaining of the naming and framing kind of can lead to that heightened self-awareness. I literally had to discipline myself to stop apologizing when I would cry, because I was like, No, it's okay. This is humanity. This is what we're like. But until enough self-awareness was triggered, I was quick to say, "Sorry, sorry, sorry. Everything's okay," when it clearly wasn't. So that's super helpful, Alison.

One of the things too you talk about in your book also, that I think is real interesting, is gaslighting yourself. Okay? And that's a super interesting concept that I want us to address here. So would you give us a couple of examples, or one or whatever, of what that is and how we can recognize if and when we are gaslighting ourselves and what we can do about it.

Dr. Alison Cook: Yeah. So gaslighting is kind of a buzzy word, and it is really a toxic...

But I like to just simplify it by saying it's a deception coupled with a shaming projection. And what I mean by that is if you go to someone and say, you know, Hey, man, I think -- are you drinking again? Like, let's say your spouse. Are you drinking again? I notice these things. And they deny it. That's a lie. But coupled with that lie, they don't just deny it; they go after you to -- you know, You're crazy. You're paranoid. What's wrong with you, right? -- to make you feel crazy. And so it's really toxic, right, because --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Dr. Alison Cook: And so when we do it to ourselves -- here's the thing. If we're doing it to ourselves, no doubt we picked it up somewhere. Probably someone did it to us along the lines even as a child. Maybe a parent. You're not sad. Stop being sad. That's dumb. You know, like -- right? That's a form of kind of gaslighting you out of your emotions. And so we do that to ourselves. It's like, I'm not sad. I'm not sad. You shouldn't feel that -- again, you shouldn't feel that way, you know, sort of that shaming accusation, and you don't really feel that way. You know, so you're denying it and then shaming yourself for it.

And I really think it's a -- I believe with all of my being that deception and shame, which are the two ingredients of gaslighting, are one of the primary tools of the enemy of our souls. He wants to keep us from the truth that sets us free and he wants to keep us in shame, in toxic shame. And so if you notice that in yourselves -- I always say to people the first step is just name that without shame. Oh, my gosh, I do that. I constantly invalidate my own feelings. I constantly tell myself, Oh, you don't really feel that. That's stupid to feel that way.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Dr. Alison Cook: And naming that -- you don't even have to fix it yet, but just go, Oh, my gosh, I do that -- you've already taken a huge step of aligning yourself with the truth. It's okay. It's okay. You picked that up somewhere. But I do see it a lot. I see it a lot.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, when you describe it that way, deception combined with shame, I see it a lot. I do it to myself too. I mean, I recognize that. And you're right, what a tool of the enemy.

All right, Alison. So we understand a little bit about naming, we understand a little bit about framing. And then that third practice, I believe you called it what, brave action?

Dr. Alison Cook: Braving, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Braving.

Dr. Alison Cook: So there's naming, framing, and braving. And braving -- so in my experience, how I came up with it is we -- it's exactly what you said. We feel the emotion, and then our next thought is what do I do about it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. Exactly. Come on, give us a to-do list.

Dr. Alison Cook: Tell me what to do. And so I'm like, Okay, I'll get you there. I agree, but we got to go through these first two practices first. And that's the hard part. You know, we got to be patient with the process, because otherwise we're going to do the wrong thing.

And I tell a sort of silly story in the book, but it's a great example of, you know, you come home -- and I've done this myself. I come home, the dishes are piled up and I'm mad, you know. I'm like, What? And I will take myself on -- and, you know, the first thing I want to do is yell at somebody or, you know, whatever. And I take myself on a walk, and I do the framing, and I go, what are the facts? And I had to face the truth about myself as a young parent. I'd not asked my household to help me in that simple task. I never asked. So who am I mad at? Well, mostly at myself in that instance. Right? I'd never really sat down and said, Hey, we need a new approach. Now, sure, I could be a little bit mad at -- you know, maybe people should figure that out. But, you know, I'm the parent. It's my job to set the norms, set the guidelines, and enforce them. Right?

And that's a dumb example. But if I'd gone right to braving and yelled out of the anger, I never would have gotten anywhere, as opposed to stopping and going, What's the real problem here? Now I can implement a better solution. Right? And so the braving is what is the actual action I need to take? Maybe if I have a system in place, then I do need to enforce the consequences.

Jennifer Rothschild: Sure. Then you can be mad.

Dr. Alison Cook: You know, then say, Hey, guys, what's the deal? We've talked about this. Right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, mm-hmm.

Dr. Alison Cook: But if I've never done that, if I've literally just kind seethed internally about the mess, but never asked for help, then I got to take -- the brave action I'm going to take is we need to have a family meeting. We need to have a better solution for the mess. Here's what we're going to do. That's a different brave action. So braving is absolutely taking action. We have to take action. But it comes after having done the work of gotten to the root of the actual problem.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. That makes so much sense.

I remember many years ago when I finally figured out I did not have the right to resent my husband for something I never told him, you know. Because I had built up expectations in my mind. He should have done this. Why didn't he do that? If he loved me, he -- I was having a complete monolog in my whole brain that had everything to do with him, yet I had never mentioned any of it to him, and then I was holding him responsible for my emotions. It was quite dysfunctional and revelatory all at once. And it doesn't mean that it was an easy process, that naming it and framing it and -- but it meant that there was more liberty on the other side. So I say that to you for this reason. I like that you call it braving, because it is.

Dr. Alison Cook: Yeah. It's hard.

Jennifer Rothschild: It is.

Dr. Alison Cook: And I love that example. Because all that self-awareness -- and this is me as a therapist going, you know, we can sort of overfocus on the self-awareness, but you do have to take a brave action. And in that case, yeah, you realize it's on me. But then the brave step is --

Jennifer Rothschild: But then you say something.

Dr. Alison Cook: -- I got to let my husband know, Hey, you know, this is hard for me. I know you don't -- maybe you give him the benefit of the doubt. But, Oh, that's hard, you know, that's vulnerable. It's brave. Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, it is. It's a very interesting -- it's a lifelong practice.

Dr. Alison Cook: Yes, it is.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I love that your book is like a companion on the journey. Y'all, I know listening, you already have figured out that you need her book, and so we want you to get it. But could you please wait till I finish asking Alison this last question. Okay? So, Alison, here is our last question. And then on the outro, I'm going to tell you how to get the book, everybody, so just hold tight.

But one of the things that you talk about in the book also, Alison, is curiosity. You talk a lot about it. I love that you've woven that through. So give us a very practical way to recognize this chaos that goes on in our minds, these tangled emotions and conflicting emotions, and then how to manage it, or maybe even remedy it through curiosity.

Dr. Alison Cook: Yeah. The phrase "just get curious" is so powerful to me because it flips us of that self-shame and self-criticism. And it's like, oh, what if I could just get curious? Right? What if I could -- because there's no -- curiosity is just noticing, you know, I wonder what that's about. Yeah, I'm really mad. I wonder what that is. And so if you can just learn, okay, you know, get curious, get curious. Ultimately we want to get to self-compassion, you know, like it's okay. Right? But that's a bigger leap for most of us.

So to just -- you know, I remember -- I turned 50 last year, and I hated it, Jennifer. And I felt so much shame that I hated it. I was like, I should be this liberated woman, I shouldn't hate this, you know. And I remember just going, I got to get curious. What is that about? That is so interesting. And it took me a long time to unravel it, but just that reframing of, oh, that is interesting, just immediately kind of brought a little more calm to the chaos.

Jennifer Rothschild: Get curious. When we get curious, it flips us out of self-shame. I love that. So notice, name, frame, and then be brave enough to sit with the hard feelings, and then be brave enough to do something. Take brave action. You got this.

K.C. Wright: Mm-hmm. I loved her last words. Just say to yourself, Oh, that's interesting.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, I love that too. I love that too.

K.C. Wright: Really good stuff today. But you can get more, because we're giving one of her books away. Go to the Show Notes now, 413podcast.com/323 to get connected to Jennifer's Instagram, or go straight there right now on the Instagram @jennrothschild. And don't forget, in the Show Notes you get a full transcript. Hey, by the way, can we give a big shoutout to Jill for doing those for us.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know. She does a great job. Thank you, Jill.

K.C. Wright: And while we're at it, a big shoutout to Jackie also, our producer.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, who does a fabulous job.

K.C. Wright: Jackie, we love you --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

K.C. Wright: -- and, Jill, we love you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

K.C. Wright: All right. We're so grateful for Alison's wisdom today, grateful for Jill and Jackie, and we're grateful for you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

K.C. Wright: Thank you for hanging out with us once again. We know there's a lot of podcasts out there, but you choose to spend time with us. So if this podcast blessed you, bless somebody else by sharing it on all your socials, and bless us by leaving a very kind good review, because it helps the algorithms reach one more heart for Jesus.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. All right, our people, K.C. said it well. You are loved. So remember, whatever you face or however you feel, you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

K.C. Wright: I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: And you can.

K.C. Wright: Woo.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. My mug is empty. Wonder Woman needs more coffee.