4:13 Podcast: Can I Really Be More Like Jesus? With Cynthia Heald [Episode 321]

Cynthia Heald: It dawned on me that God's whole purpose is to make us like Jesus. We're his children and we need to trust the process that he has for us and to know that all that comes into our life in Romans 8:28 is for good. And I finally understood part of that. The good is that we become like Jesus and God is able to orchestrate circumstances in our life that will conform us to the image of Christ.

Jennifer Rothschild: What if we really imitated Jesus? What would we be like? And what would the whole world be like? Or is it even possible, though? Because think about it, Jesus was sinless and he performed miracles. He was God's beloved Son. So how in the world could we even get close to being like him? Well, today's guest, Author Cynthia Heald, is going to show us what Scripture says about living like Jesus and how God makes this possible.

So on this episode we are going to talk about how God can shape our hearts, motivations and actions so that we grow more and more like Jesus. This is an everyday grace-fueled journey, so let's do it.

K.C. Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, hey, friends. It's two friends here in the closet, and one topic, and zero stress. And it's getting cool and crisp outside in the month of October. And, of course, coming up is -- well, it depends on how you like to commemorate. It's either Reformation Day or Halloween. But it's coming up soon. I have some good friends, and they love Martin Luther, and they actually named their dog Marty. Yes. And they celebrate Reformation Day. They call it his birthday. It's very sweet. But I never forget, K.C. -- because I love Halloween. I just love to meet all the little children in the neighborhood when they come to the door. It's sweet. And I'm a believer, you know, let them dress up fun and -- to the pure, all things are pure.

Anyway, so I'll never forget the Halloween that Connor came back with all of his Halloween candy. Because at that time, our neighborhood was just teeming with kids, and everybody had good candy at the door. And he came home with a giant bag. He was probably six years old. Seven, maybe. Anyway, he was in first grade. And I don't know what it was in health class that they had learned about, but he had learned about diabetes.

K.C. Wright: Ooh.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so he had this -- you know, he's very literal. Anyway. He was very literal, analytical even then. And he had made this connection between sugar and diabetes, and, you know, your eyesight and your -- nerve damage.

Anyway, so Katherine, who was my assistant at the time, she came upstairs, and he had this big bag of candy still sitting on the kitchen counter. She said, "Connor, aren't you going to eat that?" And he said, "No. You can have it." So she took a piece. And he said, "No, you can have the bag." And she said, "I don't need the whole bag of candy. Don't you want the candy?" Because this is, like, unusual for a seven-year-old boy. He goes, "No. Because if I eat that, I will have diabetes and my fingers and toes will fall off."

K.C. Wright: Ooh, ooh, ooh.

Jennifer Rothschild: So that child, he would not eat his sugar. Now, he got over it real quick. He's eaten plenty of sugar since. But it was my funniest memory of -- yeah. I was like, whoever that teacher was, she made an impression on Connor.

K.C. Wright: The things kids say.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right? And that they connect with. But you know what?

K.C. Wright: That could be a whole podcast.

Jennifer Rothschild: But I will say this. You know, it is true. You and I, K.C., call sugar the white devil. It is.

K.C. Wright: It is.

Jennifer Rothschild: It'd be different if we could just have -- I'm speaking of me alone, my people -- if I could have just one piece and move along my happy day. But, no, if I have one piece, I want 7,296 pieces.

K.C. Wright: I know.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I will eat myself into a sugar coma, I'll feel miserable, then I'll get upset with myself. It is a bad cycle.

K.C. Wright: Well, when you're our age, you look at a meal and you go, Huh. I'm really craving that, but that'll put me asleep in about 30 minutes --

Jennifer Rothschild: I know. Right?

K.C. Wright: -- and I'll waste my whole day.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

K.C. Wright: And so you just stick to meats and veggies and you live a happier life.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's true.

K.C. Wright: It's true.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, sugar lies to us. It is not a promise keeper. It says, ooh, you're going to love this and feel so good, and then it --

K.C. Wright: And it's everywhere.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh. It's in everything.

K.C. Wright: You have to guard yourself every day. Every day you got to guard yourself.

Jennifer Rothschild: So don't feel guilty. If you're a sugar lover, I get it. I am too. I am too.

K.C. Wright: Yeah, me too.

Jennifer Rothschild: So we're not saying this to feel guilty. I'm saying it out loud because it's something I need to constantly tell myself, because I fall for the lie over and over and over. So anyway, I'm saying that out loud because as sugar is all going to be in my house, what I do not give away on Halloween night is going in the trash can.

K.C. Wright: And remember, it's the one time of the year that you have complete strangers coming to your door.

Jennifer Rothschild: Mm-hmm.

K.C. Wright: Name another time of the year.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know.

K.C. Wright: Okay?

Jennifer Rothschild: So give them Jesus.

K.C. Wright: So give them Jesus. Give them Jesus.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

K.C. Wright: If you're going to participate, give them Jesus.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Amen.

K.C. Wright: So, I mean, you know --

Jennifer Rothschild: Good word.

K.C. Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. All right. So that has nothing to do with this conversation.

K.C. Wright: Well, no, it does, because --

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, tell me.

K.C. Wright: -- our podcast is candy for their ears.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, that's good. And we want you to be addicted.

K.C. Wright: And this is not harmful.

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

K.C. Wright: This is beneficial.

Jennifer Rothschild: This is good stuff.

K.C. Wright: It really is.

Jennifer Rothschild: In fact, talking with Cynthia Healed on this conversation was super interesting for me because I've followed her for years. I mean, she's been an author for so many years. And I remember as a young woman reading -- she has this book series Becoming A Woman Of -- fill in the blank basically. I think she calls it the Becoming series.

Anyway, I remember reading a couple of those when I was just a young wife, and I loved them. Yeah, it's really special to have her on the podcast.

K.C. Wright: Cynthia Heald is a Bible teacher and the author of the popular Becoming a Woman Bible Study Series. She loves to share and study the Word of God and spend time with her family of four children, 12 grandchildren, and three great grandchildren.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

K.C. Wright: Cynthia and her husband, Jack, have served with the Navigators and live in Tucson, Arizona.

So you're going to love this conversation, and we love you for being a part of this moment. So pull up your chair, here we go.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Cynthia. I have followed your ministry and your books for years, and I'm just so thankful for your faithfulness. And so you are, I believe, uniquely qualified to answer this first question. All right? So what are the biggest myths or misconceptions that we as believers have when it comes to becoming like Jesus?

Cynthia Heald: That is a great question. And I have bought into many of those misconceptions, I think, over the years. Jennifer, one of the impactful statements that Philip Yancey made is that he had -- he had a little survey as he flew on airplanes or at different social functions. He would ask different people how they would respond or how would they define an evangelical Christian. And he was amazed that most of them said that they were kind of cliquish and judgmental and far right. And he said what really stunned him was that no one said, Oh, an evangelical Christian? They're the most kind and loving people I've ever met.

So, Jennifer, my own story, real quick, is several years ago I went into a jewelry store after Christmas to return a bracelet that my husband had given me for Christmas. It was too large and I just wanted to exchange it. And I went in and this dear lady began to help me, and we could not find a bracelet that would fit. So then we started looking at necklaces and then moved on to earrings. And I guess I wasn't in a very good mood that day to buy anything, and I think probably after 30 minutes I finally chose something. And we went to the cash register and she said, "Now, what is your phone number?" And I gave it to her and she typed it in. And then she kind of gasped. And she looked at me and she said, "Oh, are you Cynthia Heald that writes Bible studies?" And I immediately thought, Oh, no. Do I say yes or no? Because I thought, what have I been like the last 30 minutes? You know, was I kind? Was I patient? Was I winsome at all? But the thing that I took from that was that at no time during my time with her did I even think about being an ambassador for Christ or being Christlike, and it really touched my heart.

And so I think a lot of times misconceptions of Christians, that we -- I don't know. I guess I kind of presume sometimes upon the Lord and I just forget that I'm his ambassador. And I just think that as Christians, we need to be more intentional and determined to represent Jesus. No matter where we are, in the grocery store or anything else, that hopefully people will say, you know, she was so kind and she was so considerate and -- I don't know. I just think sometimes we don't intentionally represent Jesus as we should.

Jennifer Rothschild: I totally 100% agree. And I laughed when you said that she noticed your name and you literally rewound. Because I have done that so many times because I write books also. And if somebody says, "Oh, you're Jennifer," and then I'm like, what have I said? How have I behaved? And you're right, instead of the rewind, we need to have it at the beginning of this thought of every interaction.

Cynthia Heald: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, whether they know our name or not, we want to represent the name above all names.

Cynthia Heald: Absolutely.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. When we're not kind or when we're selfish and grouchy or -- you know, just like what Philip Yancey described with his informal surveys on the planes, it is up to us. We are the ones who do bear the name of Christ, and so people will not know what he's like if we don't represent it.

Cynthia Heald: Exactly.

Jennifer Rothschild: So I'm curious, though, Cynthia -- because not only have you written books, obviously, you have walked with Christ for many decades now. And so you just gave us a microcosm of the 30-minute episode. But I'm curious how your whole faith journey has impacted how you think about becoming like Jesus. Like, are you more like Jesus now than you were when you first met him?

Cynthia Heald: Oh, Jennifer, I think you need to ask my husband. I pray I am, but I'm still -- all of my studies are Becoming. And even this little book is Becoming Like Jesus. I think we're all in process. So I am definitely -- even though I am really old, I am still in process. But I do pray that -- I just think John the Baptist's prayer, He must increase and I must decrease, I pray that that is true in my life as I have walked with him more and more. But anytime anyone comes up to me -- and, Jennifer, I'm sure you've had this too -- they say, "Oh, I want to be just like you." And I give them a hug and I said, "No, you need to come live with me first before you say that."

Jennifer Rothschild: Right? Well, I think, Cynthia, we usually write books about what we need to read.

Cynthia Heald: Absolutely.

Jennifer Rothschild: I mean, I think we could look at your library and your bibliography of books and say, Oh, I can see her faith journey right there. These are all the places where she's grown and struggled and found defeat and victory. But all of it is part of becoming like Christ. And I love that your books all start with that word, because that does set the standard. We don't arrive; we're always becoming.

Cynthia Heald: No. And another misconception, Jennifer, is that, oh, I could never become like Jesus. He was perfect and he was sinless. But I think we need -- the verse that impacted my life that kind of propelled me to write this devotional study was Romans 8:29. He said, For we know -- no. That's Romans 8 -- Romans 8:29 said that, "For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to become conformed to the image of Christ." And it dawned on me that God's whole purpose is to make us like Jesus. We're his children, and we need to trust the process that he has for us and to know that all that comes into our life -- in Romans 8:28 -- is for good. And I finally understood part of that. The good is that we become like Jesus. And God is able to orchestrate circumstances in our life that will conform us to the image of Christ. And I think sometimes I forget that that's God's overriding guiding purpose in my life, is that whatever I encounter...

And so now whenever I get in a frustrating situation or I'm in circumstances that I don't like, I say, All right, God, I know you're working in my life to make me more like Jesus. Please help me to cooperate and to trust you in this process.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's a good word, Cynthia. Because I do think sometimes we get so caught up in the moment that we don't think about the end goal, which is, yes, that we would be conformed. And it's God who does that, conforms us to the image of his Son.

But here's the thing that I have noticed too. In our desire to be like Christ -- because there's a lot of people listening right now, they are well meaning. They love Jesus. They want to be like Jesus. Okay? So how do we avoid, with that heightened desire, falling into legalism or, like, this perfectionistic works-based faith in our attempt to be like Christ?

Cynthia Heald: Right. Well, and that's a real -- you ask very good questions. I think -- again, on my journey with the Lord -- I think it is Chambers that says, "Don't ever try to humble yourself. God can do that very well on his own." And I have been humbled so many times, and I think -- someone asked me recently what has God been teaching me. And I responded, I said, you know, I just finally learned that life is not lived on my own terms and that God is more interested in who I am than in what I do. And I think that has -- I've become more content in understanding it's not how much I do for the Lord, it's what he wants to do for me and do in me. And use me the way he wants to, not my preconceived ideas of how I need to serve him.

So I think this is part of the rest that God wants to give us, that he is God, he's our Father, he created us, he has a purpose for us, and we're most content when we're in the center of his will.

Jennifer Rothschild: Such a good word. Such a good word. And I think you're speaking to the hearts of many, because we become so caught up in what we're doing to please God.

Cynthia Heald: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. We need to have his definition of success, which is just obedience and trust, you know?

Cynthia Heald: Yes, it is.

Jennifer Rothschild: It really is. It is. And that is spoken, by the way, our friends, from a woman who has published -- how many books, Cynthia? Like 750,000? I mean, you've written a million books.

Cynthia Heald: I have no idea. I don't keep track. I don't. I don't know. The teens or something, I think.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. It's a lot. It's a lot. I mean, I remember coming of age as a young woman and reading your books, so...

But the point I'm trying to make is the Lord has shaped your definition of success, and it is not in what we do. And so when we please him most, it's in our hearts and it's in our obedience, it's in our trust --

Cynthia Heald: Yes, yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and not in those other things. Which might be an outpouring or a result of manifestation of our obedience and trust, but that's not the thing.

Cynthia Heald: No.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's the heart, so...

Cynthia Heald: He looks at our heart. You're exactly right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Well -- so I'm curious. There might be someone listening right now, and so I'm curious -- because she could be feeling some uncomfortable feelings at the moment. All right? So what would you say to the Christian who is starting to feel a little uncomfortable, maybe even a little ashamed or condemned, because she realizes, oh, I had a similar incident in a jewelry store, the equivalent of such, and I did not behave well. And I don't think that my neighbors even know I'm a Christian; my behavior does not reflect Christ. And I kind of didn't realize I haven't connected those dots, and now I'm feeling a little bit ashamed and condemned and -- what would you say to her?

Cynthia Heald: Well, I say praise God that you realize it, for one thing. I think understanding that we need to really come to terms with what essentially God purposes for us and that -- the wonderful thing about God is his grace, as you well know, Jennifer. And it doesn't matter what we've done in the past. What matters is what we want to do -- want our relationship to be with him now. And I think it thrills his heart when we say, God, I have not -- I know I have not fulfilled your purpose for me as I should. But I want you to begin to teach me and encourage me and to be who you want me to be, and so from this day forth, I pray I can be sensitive to the promptings of your Holy Spirit.

But God forgives us. And like I said, I think he's so pleased when we realize that we're not probably on the right track, but we want to be.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. I agree with you. And he provides -- I mean, that is -- well, we don't need to feel condemned, but when we can feel the conviction --

Cynthia Heald: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- that says, Hey, I'm now coming to Jesus saying, Fix this. Help me. Forgive me.

You know, it reminds me, Cynthia, of something I hadn't thought of in years and years. But I had a former family member who was an atheist. By marriage she had joined the family. And she was an atheist, and we are a Christian family. My dad was a pastor. Obviously, you know, I'm in full-time ministry. We all love the Lord. And it took me a few years to realize that we did not probably always represent Christ. And I'll never forget sitting down with her one night and just saying, I feel like we've done a disservice to you and to what we say we believe. I spoke for myself only. I said, I have not represented Christ. I haven't been loving. When I've said mean things, that doesn't represent Christ, when I've -- and so I just kind of said, you know, You don't have to do anything with this, but I just want you to know I realized -- I love Jesus and I misrepresented him, and that was not fair to you. She didn't know what to do with it, but I probably -- I can trust the Holy Spirit that he's taking care of that and he's going to let that bear fruit according to his will.

But I think sometimes we have to do that too, Cynthia. You know, like, if you'd blown up in the jewelry store, you probably need to take your little self back in there and say, Hey, sorry.

Cynthia Heald: You are very courageous, Jennifer. That is just perfect. Absolutely.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. I just think we got to be real with people, because then I think Jesus becomes more whimsical and attractive.

Cynthia Heald: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Cynthia, I'm glad you've put this book, too, into a devotional format, because -- I'm just going to shout out to the listeners here. It's a very accessible way to journey with Cynthia through this material just to help you. You know, and you've already sensed from Cynthia -- Cynthia will be a loving guide to walk with you on this journey of becoming more like Christ.

And so that leads me to probably our most succinct and difficult question, and our last question, Cynthia. Okay? So now that we've heard all this, I think it begs the question, All right, so how do we do it? How do I become more like Christ? So as this podcast ends, what would you tell them? Where do they start to become more like Christ?

Cynthia Heald: Yes. Well, Jennifer, I think it has to begin with a very honest and truthful surrender to the Lord, to know that he is God and that he knows what's best for us. Jennifer, I love Dwight L. Moody. He said, "Give your life to God; he can do more with it than you can!" And I think when we come to that realization, that our rest and our contentment is when we fully yield to Christ.

And so I think the first step is saying, God, I want to be all you want me to be. I want to become like Christ, and I'm giving myself to you for you to accomplish your purpose in your way and in your time. And so I pray you would bring people into my life, that I would begin to spend good time with you each day and so that you can mold me into a child that you can use and that brings you honor and glory.

K.C. Wright: Step one, surrender to Jesus. If you want to be like him, give him your whole self. Don't hold back any single part of you. And then get with people who can help you. That's why church is so important. You know, if you hang with people who are like Jesus or who are trying to be like Jesus, it'll help you be more like Jesus too.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's so true. It's so true. We become more like who we hang out with. So, yeah, be with Jesus and be with people who are with Jesus. That's a good word, K.C.

K.C. Wright: And if you want to become more like Jesus, get Cynthia's book.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yep.

K.C. Wright: We're giving one away on Jennifer's Instagram. It's simply found on Instagram @jennrothschild. Or you can also get there through the Show Notes at 413podcast.com/321.

I think we all need to remember the word "becoming." It is a process to be like Jesus. One surrender, one choice, one heartbeat at a time. He who began a good work in you is going to continue that work until the day of Christ. That's the living, loving promise. So keep becoming like Jesus, 4:13ers. You can because -- here's truth -- you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: Let me think about it.

K.C. Wright: Let's do it again.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

K.C. Wright: Okay. I thought you were wanting to re-record.

Jennifer Rothschild: No, we are not redoing it.

K.C. Wright: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: There you go. That was the real thing 4:13ers. Love you. Bye.

K.C. Wright: Love you more. Leave us a review. We'll love you more. That's candy to our soul.

Jennifer Rothschild: There you go.