4:13 Podcast: Can I Learn to Disagree Well? With John Inazu [Episode 320]

John Inazu: There will be times when we are asked to give an account of the faith that we have or to stand up for a particular viewpoint or belief. And I think the posture of our engagement really matters here, that we can speak truthfully with compassion, that we can remember that the people on the other side of an argument or a viewpoint are not just caricatures or stereotypes, but real human beings who are complex in many ways, and that we can also advance even truth with a kind of modesty about it. You know, we can say, this is where my confidence lies, or this is -- I'm doing my best here, and this is as I understand what God wants me to do in my life or what God's call for the world is. But to hold open a degree of humility, even as we're stating or proclaiming truth. And I think that makes a world of difference to people who don't want to be preached at, but want to be in relationship with others.

Jennifer Rothschild: Did you happen to notice the title of this episode? I think it could use a little work. "Can I Disagree Well" with John Inazu. Well, here's the thing. We are not trying to disagree well with John himself, you know, our guest today. Actually, we are just plain trying to learn how to disagree well with whomever we are maybe in disagreement with. We want to be able to disagree in wise and kind and godly ways.

So today's guest, John Inazu, is going to teach us how to build bridges and give us better ways to live joyfully in a very complex society. You can disagree without compromise, and you can be respectful without ignoring your convictions. So 4:13 family, let's learn how.

K.C. Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, hello, our people. I just finished chewing up a caramel.

K.C. Wright: A caramel or --

Jennifer Rothschild: I know. See, I get insecure.

K.C. Wright: -- or caramel?

Jennifer Rothschild: That's why I get insecure. Oh, my gosh.

K.C. Wright: Someone's going to write a letter.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So here's the thing. It's a salted caramel --

K.C. Wright: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- caramel, that K.C. brought me from the Ozark Mills. It's so good. It stuck to all my teeth. I finally got it out just in time to say hello to you. But, yes, okay, that does beg the question, K.C. Do you say caramel or caramel?

K.C. Wright: Do you say tomato or tomato?

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I say tomato, of course.

K.C. Wright: Or potato or potato?

Jennifer Rothschild: Potato. But what do you say, caramel or caramel?

K.C. Wright: I say caramel.

Jennifer Rothschild: I say caramel. But, see, I did grow up in the south. I wonder if that has something to do with it.

K.C. Wright: Every once in a while, I'll hear your Southern twang.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, it comes out a little bit.

K.C. Wright: Every once in a while.

Jennifer Rothschild: If I talk to Southern people, yeah, I have to debrief from my southerness. But, yeah, there are some more -- one of the things I used to say all the time was, you know, I'm fixing to do that, I'm fixing to do that. And my husband, whose people were from up north, were like, What does that even mean?

So, yeah, caramel, caramel, I don't know. If you have an opinion, you probably don't need to share it with us because there's not much we can do about it.

K.C. Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: I think it's just one of those things --

K.C. Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- we're going to have to agree to disagree on, which is, like, so perfect. Thank you. Thank you for my candy support for this conversation today, K.C.

K.C. Wright: You're welcome.

Jennifer Rothschild: Because, y'all, here we are. If you're alive on Planet Earth in the United States of America, you know there's an election coming up.

K.C. Wright: What? I had no idea.

Jennifer Rothschild: So what a great time to talk about how to live well when we may not see eye to eye with people about things. I mean, seriously, y'all, we are in a polarized nation in the United States. And it's okay that we disagree, it really is. We don't have to agree with everybody about all the things. But we as believers in Christ, I do believe we have a responsibility to represent Christ, and that means we need to disagree, maintaining our convictions, but we need to do it in a way that's Christ-like, that is still kind to someone and honors the person. So, like, you know, if you're part of trash talking the person running for president that you don't prefer, maybe you should stop that -- okay? -- for the sake of Christ. Our opinions may matter to ourselves, but unless they are really edifying and kind and deal with someone's issues rather than their personhood, we probably don't need to be being ugly on social media. I don't think it does well for the body of Christ.

And, you know, when we get -- honestly, K.C., this is one of the things I've thought of so many times. When we get before the throne, I don't think Jesus is going to say, Well done, my good and faithful servant, you know, way to prove them all wrong. Way to show them that you were funny and pithy with your comments about the other guy. I just don't think that Jesus is going to say that. I think Jesus is going to -- I want to hear -- like what he said -- I think it's in John 13 where he said, "You have loved them like I have loved you." And, dude, he loves us with patience, with kindness. He doesn't tolerate sin. He calls it out, but he shows us grace and kindness. And I think we need to keep that in mind, especially during this season in the United States.

K.C. Wright: I recently had a heart-to-heart with a good friend of mine. And it was a heated conversation, but I just told him, I said, "My belief system is different from yours. My belief system is based on the Word of God. And so I love you, bro, but we're going to have to agree to disagree." But, I mean, we've been friends since we were kids, so we can't make this rip us apart. We just have two different belief systems.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

K.C. Wright: But, you know, with what Jennifer's saying, talking smack about someone online or venting will do nothing. Here's where you can change everything. Why don't you take that same energy and pray, and pray for them? What if that person that you just can't stand, you actually spent 10 to 15 minutes praying for them and their family? Because we all live on the other side of this screen, and we've all become keyboard warriors, and through that you forget that these people are real people.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

K.C. Wright: That's somebody's grandpa, that's somebody's husband, that's somebody's dad, and they matter just like you matter. So your prayers, I'm just saying --

Jennifer Rothschild: That's a good word.

K.C. Wright: -- will go a lot farther and make more of a difference than --

Jennifer Rothschild: Thank a Facebook rant.

K.C. Wright: -- your smack talk ever will.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Amen.

K.C. Wright: But you still have to vote. You need to vote.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah, we need to vote. And I know --

K.C. Wright: You got to vote.

Jennifer Rothschild: That might be really hard for you this year. I get it. I get it. I think when I introduced at the top of this thing our podcast, you know, John's going to talk about living joyful in this conflicted time. It is. There's a lot of conflict. We get it. We get it. It's in our hearts, it's in our world, it's all around us.

So why are you listening to us any longer? We need to hear from the expert. So let's introduce John Inazu.

K.C. Wright: John Inazu is the Sally D. Danforth Distinguished Professor of Law and Religion at Washington University in St. Louis. He teaches criminal law, law and religion, and various First Amendment courses. John has written three books and published opinion pieces in "The Washington Post," "Atlantic," "Chicago Tribune," "L.A. Times," "USA Today," "Newsweek," and "CNN." And all I can say is wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, right?

K.C. Wright: So this is going to be so good, so let's listen in on John and Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, John, when I was reading about you, I got just slightly intimidated because I realized, oh, my goodness, the man is an attorney. He's a law professor. Okay. So -- that's really good, though, because it means you are like a professional arguer. So what can the law teach us about how to be constructive in our disagreements?

John Inazu: Yeah, it's funny when you say professional arguer, my wife accuses me of that, sometimes when we get in fights.

Jennifer Rothschild: I bet. I wouldn't want to have to engage.

John Inazu: I understand the label. And in fact, you know, there is a reputation of some lawyers being the hostile, argumentative types and there are some lawyers who live into that stereotype. But I would say the best kind of lawyers are the ones who actually know how to see the other side with all of its strengths and with all of its clarity, if only to increase the strength of their own argument or to better their understanding of the issues. And so I think the best lawyers know how to show empathy, know how to construct other side the argument well, and know how to engage graciously, even when it's heated and even when the stakes matter. And that's the kind of posture and attitude that I'm trying to suggest is useful to other people in their ordinary lives.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, it makes total sense, because nobody wants to engage with a hothead or someone who's unkind And so I appreciate that the angle you're taking in your book, you're really teaching us how to disagree lovingly and how to do it well. The book, as I already mentioned in the intro, is called -- well, no, I don't know -- what is the book called? Learning --

John Inazu: "Learning to Disagree."

Jennifer Rothschild: It is "Learning to Disagree." Okay. I had that written there and I wasn't sure if that was correct. I apologize. But anyway -- so, yes, a book called "Learning to Disagree" means that it is a process. It's not something maybe that comes naturally; we need to learn it.

So you emphasize, as you just mentioned, the importance of empathy. And you also talk about patience and forgiveness. But I want to focus in on empathy. So tell us how empathy can make a difference in our disagreements.

John Inazu: You know, first of all, I'm just so glad you connected process to learning, because I think that's exactly right. These are not skills that you can acquire listening to a TED Talk. You know, you really have to dig in and start working at them and practicing them, and I think a lot of us need to carve out the space in our lives to do that.

When it comes to empathy, I think Christians have a leg up here because we can start with the recognition that the person across from us, no matter how annoying or misguided they might seem to us, is fundamentally an image bearer created in God's image. And that alone should give us a great deal of empathy, that we are connecting with another human being who, you know, as C. S. Lewis has said, is destined to one fate or another, and we play a role in that in our engagement. And so sometimes I think an argument or a disagreement isn't even about the substance of the argument, it's about the other person across from us. And if we can take time to start with that human connection, we might not resolve our differences, but we'll at least have treated that other person as the image bearer that they are.

Jennifer Rothschild: Gosh, I love that so much. Because I know -- I'm a C. S. Lewis junkie, and you were referring to what C. S. Lewis talks about in "The Weight of Glory," you know, that we really don't engage with any mere mortal, and so every one of us bears this image of God. I appreciate you saying that.

I also heard someone say -- which is not very C. S. Lewis, it's much more like a meme you'd read online, but something like how when we engage people, that our attempt should be not to prove ourselves right, but to improve the relationship. And I think that's kind of what you're talking about, is to honor the person more than the argument. And empathy does that. That is so Christlike.

But here's the thing, John. Okay? So sometimes when we're trying to do that -- you know, and maybe we're trying to be really nice in an adversarial relationship or conversation -- and so what happens is we end up not being truthful or honest. So kind of give us an understanding of how we can balance being gracious, being kind, with being honest when we do disagree.

John Inazu: Right. Well, and certainly the counsel is to speak the truth in love. And you can't just have love without truth or truth without love. So we need both. I think part of this starts with a wisdom or a discernment about when to speak. So as a threshold matter, I don't think God needs us weighing in on every single hot button issue of the day to --

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

John Inazu: -- give our own gloss on truth. I think there are plenty of people out there, especially on social media, who are doing a lot of that anyway. And so part of it might be there are times we're called not to speak or not to engage and just focus on listening or relationship.

But you're certainly right that there will be times when we are asked to give an account of the faith that we have or to stand up for a particular viewpoint or belief. And I think the posture of our engagement really matters here, that we can speak truthfully with compassion, that we can remember that the people on the other side of an argument or a viewpoint are not just caricatures or stereotypes, but real human beings who are complex in many ways, and that we can also advance even truth with a kind of modesty about it. You know, we can say, This is where my confidence lies, or this is -- I'm doing my best here, and this is as I understand what God wants me to do in my life or what God's call for the world is. But to hold open a degree of humility, even as we're stating or proclaiming truth. And I think that makes a world of difference to people who don't want to be preached at but want to be in relationship with others.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. It's really not arguments that win people; it's relationship. And I love that you mentioned the word "humility," because we're not going to have empathy, we're not going to have compassion. We're not going to have any of that without humility. So I appreciate that. It is so antithetical, sadly, John, to what I'm seeing today, of course, online, but sadly, even in our churches. And some of it is misguided because we associate confidence -- you know, I'm very confident about my stance that I am right. Okay? We associate confidence with authoritarian...

John Inazu: Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Rothschild: So I think of that in contrast or in comparison to the Scripture in James that says to be slow to speak, quick to hear, slow to anger. Can you talk to us about that verse. I just hear that verse resonating, ringing through everything you're saying, about being quick to listen, slow to speak.

John Inazu: Right. Well, you know, and undergirding all of that are the sort of the fruits of the Spirit, which give us the ability to do that and which are cultivated over time. You know, we don't just have them land upon us. But we really have to practice how to be loving and joyful and patient and peaceful. And those don't always come naturally, but it's through those postures and virtues that we can engage with, again, a greater humility and compassion.

And I think, you know, with humility, where a lot of Christians go haywire with it is they think that humility leads to a kind of relativism, right? If I'm not as strong or assertive as I can be, then I'm somehow opening the door to everyone's viewpoint being the same. And I don't think that's the case at all. I think that humility complements confidence, and it's different than certainty. And this is, I think, a critical point that a lot of people can gloss over, that it's very hard to be certain about parts of life. But we can have confidence in our faith and confidence in the person and work of Jesus, and that's more than enough to go out there and live the next day and the next. And that kind of posture of confidence with humility is so much more appealing to the people around us than a kind of dogmatic preaching.

Jennifer Rothschild: Listen, that is so tweetable. The difference between confidence and certainty, that's brilliant. I appreciate that distinction.

And, you know, it reminds me of another distinction that I think we get tripped up on. Because so many of us, we get kind of tripped up by what we think is fair. Okay? But we always assign our own definition of fairness to what we think is fair. So how can -- just like your profession, studying the law, what can that teach us about fairness?

John Inazu: Yeah. So this is a tricky concept that I try to unpack a bit in the book. We learn in law that even the best, most mature, wisest human actors struggle at the end of the day with what's fair. You know, what's the fair sentence for somebody who steals a loaf of bread? Well, maybe it depends on why they needed the bread or what their background circumstances were, or maybe it depends on who they stole from. And then it becomes even harder when you think, well, what about person A who steals a loaf of bread because they're hungry and person B who steals a loaf of bread because their kids need to eat? And do we treat those the same or differently?

And so this concept of fairness in law becomes very difficult to sort out. And it's kind of related to a notion of justice. We long for justice and fairness in this world, but in reality, all we can do as human beings in a fallen world is to take stabs at proximate justice or proximate fairness, meaning we'll try to come close, we'll try to right some wrongs and make people's lives better, but we're not going to have full justice or complete fairness in this world.

And so I think for Christians to recognize that is a great starting point as you try to enter into heated discussions over what's the right policy or the right law about certain issues. And, you know, sometimes it's going to be easier than not. So if I've got three cookies to give to my three kids, it's usually fair to give one cookie per kid, right? So we can all kind of understand that example. But in a lot of areas, especially when it comes to policies and laws, it's much harder than that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Well, just taking it down to the cookie analogy, what if one of those cookies is full of chocolate chips and the other ones are not? What's fair then? I mean, that's when I would have crisis.

John Inazu: That's right. That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow, that's some good stuff.

All right. So then here's another question. Because when we're in these disagreeable situations, or when we really genuinely are motivated by truth and justice and we disagree with somebody -- okay? -- we need to know when to have this kind of hard conversation and when to just say, okay, I guess I just need to walk away. How do we know? I know you've alluded to it. But is it a hard-and-fast formula? How do we know?

John Inazu: Yeah, right. Definitely not a hard-and-fast formula. And, you know, sometimes it starts with us, so it's useful to do a self-check on our own emotional bandwidth and mental state. I mean, I find sometimes I just don't have the energy to engage in a hard argument, and I need to realize I probably just better go for a walk or go do something by myself. So a self-awareness that recognizes when we have the capacity to engage.

And then I think there's a wisdom and discernment that comes with whom we engage. And so sometimes we do need to walk away because there's not going to be an end to the discussion or it's not going to be a healthy discussion. Sometimes we need the courage to engage more and we need to be able to say, I am called to this relationship or this discussion, and it might hurt and I might take some hits, but I can rely on those fruits of the Spirit and other resources to get me through this conversation. So you're right, there's no one-size-fits-all rule here. It requires discernment. Probably sometimes it helps to get the voice and counsel of friends before a really tough conversation.

And one of the things I also say sometimes is it's probably best not to start this with family, because there's something about family that just makes everything harder. So if you're new at this, you're trying to just test out the waters, start with a friend and work up to family later.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. And definitely don't do it on Thanksgiving with family if you ever do.

John Inazu: That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's a good word. Such a good word.

We've talked about the importance of empathy. And I cannot hear you answer any of these questions yet, John, where I cannot see the importance of humility. Like, it is essential for all these -- the discernment, the wisdom. We just got to have this humility, which I believe then empathy can spring from also.

But here's the thing about empathy. Sometimes it's easier for us to apply empathy to a person or a situation because, like, we are going to get it back, or we think we will, or we hope we will. But then we get this hard reality hit us in the face that, wait a minute, empathy is not a two-way street always. So then, like, how do we disagree well when we're the only one who is showing empathy? Or does there ever come a time, like, when we cut off the empathy spigot and say, okay, that's it, done empathizing?

John Inazu: Yeah. Well, yeah, so I think there are certainly -- there are different relationships of power and different harmful relationships where it's not wise to hold out the empathy branch indefinitely. And again, we have to have judgment on when to stop that.

But I think in many situations -- and I'm now speaking, you know, outside of those extremely harmful ones. In many situations, we know as Christians that we're called to respond with love and compassion and empathy regardless of how that's met. You know, we're called not just to love our neighbors and our friends, but to love our enemies. And we're called to -- we know we are going to face challenges and different hardships in this world. And that's okay. You know, we shouldn't expect anything less. And I think sometimes when other people can witness our response to a lack of empathy, even our posture in that can be its own form of witness.

And similarly, sometimes we'll lose these arguments. We'll lose them in relationships or we'll lose them in national policy debates. And sometimes how we lose is as important as how we win or whether we win. And so losing well and demonstrating empathy well can both matter to our witness.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's so good. And it reminds me too, I -- we all have our opinions, and most of them, or a lot of them, will be based on convictions, especially when it comes to politics. And I got to say -- and I'm saying this to you, but really to all of our 4:13 family. One of the things that breaks my heart as a believer in Christ is when one believer dogs a political candidate. Not their issues, not their stances, but their personhood. It bothers me because that does show a lack of empathy. And of all people, we as believers, our witness is obvious when we are mean to people. We can disagree with what they think, but we don't have to be mean about their personhood. Because as you mentioned earlier what C. S. Lewis said, we've really never met, you know, a mere mortal. We all bear the image of Christ.

John Inazu: Right. You know, and one really practical suggestion here for anyone listening who struggles with this is -- I recommend it in some settings -- try praying for that person or that politician you don't like. But the specific prayer should be a prayer of gratitude for something they've done right, you know.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's good.

John Inazu: And it might take a while to do some research or listen to different news sources, but you'll find something they've done right that contributes to the healing of the social fabric or the pursuit of the common good or the protection of the vulnerable. And thank God for what they're doing. And if you can't find anything, then you might have to go back to the drawing board of yourself and ask why is it that I can't find anything?

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh, word. Right? Because we see what we look for. So that's good, good stuff.

All right. So we've heard the phrase -- staying in this line of thinking. We've heard this phrase -- and probably even said it -- "I'm just going to agree to disagree." Okay? So how do we know when we should compromise our stance on something and when we should just give up and say, okay, I agree to disagree?

John Inazu: I think it's easiest to know when you have to draw the lines thickly when it comes to institutions and organizations. So think about a church or a school or some kind of membership organization. When you're very clear about who you are and what you believe, then it becomes important to say that's our line and, you know, if you're outside of this line, this probably isn't the place for you. And that's a real important posture and principle of just engaging in a diverse society.

I think compromise becomes more important and just more practical when it comes to policy making and laws in our society, that the very nature of a diverse democracy is we're not going to agree, we're not going to get our way, and we're going to need to have compromised legislation and compromised policies. And those policies, they don't mean that we're somehow partnering with the bad stuff or that we're giving up on our principles, it's just a recognition of this is what it means to live in a society that is not actually mirroring our own values or principles but is trying to accommodate a group of people who have many different beliefs and many different goals and pursuits. And I think one of the most faithful ways to live in that kind of society as Christians is to recognize that we are going to have to engage and compromise in terms of our policies and our laws.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, this is not our ultimate kingdom.

John Inazu: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so to live here well -- we're not trying to build an empire here, we're trying to be part of Kingdom building.

John Inazu: Now, that's exactly right. And, you know, you look at the Book of Jeremiah, for example, for guidance and examples of how God's people were to engage in these places that weren't their own. And, you know, God says, love the city, love the people around you, you know, be fruitful and multiply and be part of that. Don't give up on your own identity and don't give up on your joy, but don't forget to love the people around you and love the city.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, it's true. I know what you're talking about in Jeremiah 29, because -- I think the people were even instructed, pray for the welfare of this city where you're in, because in it will be your own welfare.

John Inazu: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: I mean, my goodness, can we just -- we need to apply that.

Listen, I love your wisdom and your gentleness. I'm learning so much from you, and I know our listeners are too, John. I thank you so much for writing the book "Learning to Disagree." I just know it's going to be a very practical handbook and tool for those who feel a little insecure as they're learning this.

But we're going to get to our last question. So in your book you write that it is possible to have a hard conversation, but the context is important. So explain the importance of context. And then I would love it if you would just leave us with kind of like a must do or don't forget kind of list for our next hard conversation.

John Inazu: Yeah, thanks for that. So in terms of context, one of the stories that I get into is a disagreement I have with my father. And this goes on for years, and it really affects our relationship, and then as he ends up getting sick and ultimately dying of cancer. And it's through that process that I realized that different contexts open up the possibilities for different conversations. And that's maybe a pretty stark example, but in all of our lives we have relational highs and lows and different touchpoints that allow us to engage differently with people. And so that's really the hope here, is that people can be more attentive to context and know that there's not going to be a cookie cutter recipe for successful disagreement, but that there are -- in the complicated but also wonderful relationships that we have, there are possibilities.

And then I would say for one real practical concrete takeaway here, when you are struggling to figure out better disagreement, whether it's with a person or a group of people, you can't overstate the importance of creating space for conversation. So don't make this -- certainly don't make it a social media back and forth, but don't even make it a 30-minute crowded lunch conversation. You know, commit to the time for extended discussion. And even better, commit to two or three or four conversations spread out over time so that you can have a conversation and then go away and think and pray and read some more and then come back and ask deeper and better questions. And it's again in that relationship with other people that you honor the person across from you and not just the argument that you're having, and that, I think, is the first step to better disagreement.

K.C. Wright: Well, the counselor has spoken.

Jennifer Rothschild: Here, here.

K.C. Wright: Be attentive to context. Discussions can be complicated because relationships are complicated because life is complicated.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right?

K.C. Wright: Be patient and humble. When you struggle with how to disagree better, create space for conversation. Ask deeper and better questions.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, good summary. This was really good. I just love how John prompted us to honor the person, not just the argument.

You know, one of the guiding principles in my life is to always have intellectual hospitality and intellectual humility. Like, to be welcoming to other people's opinions that I may not agree with, and to have intellectual humility, recognizing I may not know the whole story or I may not have thought of it that way before. We've got to have that kind of, I believe, humility and hospitality in our thinking and, therefore, in the way we relate to others, especially the ones we disagree with.

And by the way, I also love how John talked about how confidence and certainty kind of can interact. So y'all, we need this book. The body of Christ needs to read this and learn this so that we can literally reflect the heart of Christ.

K.C. Wright: Yeah, because Jesus was full of empathy. The Bible says he was moved with compassion and he healed them all. He showed us patience. Think of how he disagreed with us and how he strove with us with such grace and patience. He didn't get mad, give up, or get ugly toward us. May we be that way toward others.

I think a new keyword phrase I'm going to inherit from this conversation is just honor, how to honor people.

Jennifer Rothschild: Honor. Yeah, that's good.

K.C. Wright: All right. We're giving away this book. Everyone needs it. You can win it at Jennifer's Instagram, @jennrothschild, or you can simply go to the Show Notes at 413podcast.com/320.

Well, my heart is full. My head is mush.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know, right?

K.C. Wright: It's about to explode from listening to this, so --

Jennifer Rothschild: I know. The guy's so smart.

K.C. Wright: Yeah. My head hurts.

So let's be part of the love of God extended through our gracious conversations and love toward each other. We can do that --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, we can.

K.C. Wright: -- because we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

Jennifer and K.C.: And you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, you can.

You know what, K.C.? I thought of another word that I -- how about the word "hurricane"? Do you say "hurricane" or do you say "hurricane"? So I grew up in Florida, and my people called it a hurricane, "There's a hurricane coming." But most people call it hurricane.

K.C. Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: Either way, it hurts.

K.C. Wright: Well, I'm from a long line of hillbillies, and I heard my mom say the other day, "Get me a warshcloth."

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh, a warshcloth.

K.C. Wright: A warshcloth? I said, "Mom, you are more dignified than that."

Jennifer Rothschild: That's right, Mother. It is a washcloth --

K.C. Wright: Hello!

Jennifer Rothschild: -- Mother.