4:13 Podcast: Can I Tune Into Eternity Even Now? With Amy Baik Lee [Episode 309]

Amy Baik Lee: Jesus has told us that the Kingdom of God is coming, but it's also here among us right now, and it's in the midst of us and it's breaking through. I think that there is all the worth of our lives summed up in that statement, that it's worth paying attention to the Kingdom in our midst and to the Kingdom that is breaking through. Because, yes, we're waiting for wholeness and healing and restoration, but here is where we get to walk with him. And here, I believe, is where we get to see God in a capacity that we will not get to see him in in the new creation and in restoration, because it's here that we see him right alongside the brokenness.

Jennifer Rothschild: Think about that sudden yearning, the way you feel when you see a sunset. Or maybe what about that pang of longing you sense when you attend a funeral? Think about those experiences that just capture your heart in moments of beauty or peace or even sorrow, those ones that you sense are just offering you a hint of heaven. Are these meant to do more than simply point you to eternity? What if they could help you live more fully on the way there?

Well, today, Author Amy Baik Lee is going to invite you to tune in to that spark of something that you can't see but you know is real. She is going to help you understand that those longings are designed to enrich and alter every single area of your life. So if you've ever wondered how to keep going in this world while you're holding on to the world to come, this podcast is going to offer you courage, companionship, and a stirring sense of the wonder of our journey home to Christ. You're going to love it, so let's get moving.

K.C. Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, hey, people. Jennifer here. My goal is to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you live the "I Can" life of Philippians 4:13. That was K.C. Wright, my Seeing Eye Guy. Two friends, one topic, zero stress.

I got to tell you, this topic today, K.C. --

K.C. Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- it's near and dear to my heart. Because as you guys know, I've been writing a Bible study on heaven. And, in fact, it will publish in January of 2025. So if you're not signed up for my newsletter, my email, it's Java with Jennifer, you just go to jenniferrothschild.com and you'll see right there where you can sign up. And that'll keep you alert as to when this Bible study is coming out.

But why am I saying this, K.C.? Because we're talking about keeping our minds on heaven, but also because one of the questions that I've been asked several times about heaven is, do animals go to heaven?

K.C. Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh, right? And so it's because animals are near and dear to our hearts, at least most of the time --

K.C. Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and so that is why I needed to ask you.

K.C. Wright: Oh.

Jennifer Rothschild: You have a puppy. I want to know how it's going with the puppy. In fact, some people, you know, they may not have remembered that you got Ellie a puppy. So you got Ellie a puppy. Tell us what the puppy's name is and how are things going. Because I asked him this before we start. He started to tell, I said, "Cut it down. Stop right now. You're going to tell all of us." All right. So tell us how it's going with the puppy.

K.C. Wright: For Ellie's 13th birthday, I wanted it to be memorable and so -- she loves puppies, and I did the deal and got her a little Dachshund -- little baby puppy. So cute. My mother has his brother.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh. I didn't know that.

K.C. Wright: So Mom has Cooper; we have Kobe.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, Kobe.

K.C. Wright: So praise the Lord, the Lord opened a door so I could release the rabbit from our home. Yes, we had a bunny. The things we do for our kids. Leo was never inside the home, by the way. He was in a condo in the back of the house. Anyway, so Leo --

Jennifer Rothschild: Leo left the home?

K.C. Wright: Leo went to a family in our church. They have two little girls. And the girls love the bunny, buying things off Amazon for the bunny. The bunny's on a leash, the bunny's potty trained. It's crazy what they've done with this rabbit. And so now we're down to Brennan the Doodle and the Dachshund Kobe.

Jennifer Rothschild: Now, is the Dachshund Kobe potty trained?

K.C. Wright: No. That's where I'm about to lose it. I'm about to lose it. I'm serious. I have to re-dedicate my life to Christ every single morning because this thing gets me out of the spirit in 2.3 seconds. I'm fleshing out. I'm a very clean person and I cannot get this dog potty trained. I cannot get this dog potty trained. And I was venting to my hairdresser the other day -- I don't think I should call my -- the gal who cuts my hair my hairdresser?

Jennifer Rothschild: Stylist.

K.C. Wright: Stylist.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hair stylist.

K.C. Wright: There you go, because that sounded weird.

Jennifer Rothschild: No, it just sounded like you were 85 years old.

K.C. Wright: I got to keep all my man cards. I got to keep them all.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, so you were venting to your stylist.

K.C. Wright: And she goes, "Oh, yeah, I had one of those dogs. My husband and I, two years to get that thing potty trained." And I'm like, "I don't think my hardwood floors can hold up for two years."

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, K.C.

K.C. Wright: So anyway, I don't know. I don't know. I need all the prayers.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, maybe Kobe won't go to heaven. If it's works based, he's on probation.

K.C. Wright: All dogs do go to heaven and receive their golden tail.

Jennifer Rothschild: They sure do. Lucy did.

K.C. Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's right.

K.C. Wright: We still miss Lucy.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my goodness, we do. But you know what? I don't miss the accidents on the carpet.

K.C. Wright: No.

Jennifer Rothschild: I will "Amen" to that.

K.C. Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. But anyway -- so good luck with that.

K.C. Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: But you -- Kobe because it sounded similar to Cooper and they were brothers, or because of Kobe Bryant? Why Kobe?

K.C. Wright: No, it's just --

Jennifer Rothschild: You liked it? Cute name.

K.C. Wright: Ellie picked it out. I mean, there was a long list of names. She had searched and she came up with Kobe. And she loves this dog.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I'm glad.

K.C. Wright: Oh, she loves Kobe. Me, not so much. Not so much.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Well, maybe this conversation, then, with Amy is going to help you have an eternal perspective about this.

K.C. Wright: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right?

K.C. Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: So let's introduce Amy.

K.C. Wright: Amy Baik Lee holds a master of arts in English from the University of Virginia. She works at a desk overlooking a small cottage garden in Colorado, usually surrounded by her husband's woodworking projects, her two daughters' drawings, and music that sets the tone of her words. So are you ready for this?

Jennifer Rothschild: She sounds lovely, doesn't she?

K.C. Wright: I know. She sounds like one of our people.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

K.C. Wright: She is now one of our people.

Jennifer Rothschild: She is, she's a 4:13er.

K.C. Wright: There you go.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, we're ready.

K.C. Wright: So let's listen in on Amy and Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amy, I have looked forward to this conversation because of what your book is about. So let's just start with this for our listeners. In your book, you use the phrase "homeward longing." So let's start with that. Okay? Give us a definition of what a homeward longing is and, like, how does someone know if that's what they're feeling?

Amy Baik Lee: Yeah. I define "homeward longing" as something that starts with the word "sehnsucht," actually. So it's a word that C. S. Lewis used to identify a certain kind of longing that we have, often when we're confronted with beauty that seems almost too great for our souls to handle. But it's the kind of longing -- other people have defined it as a longing that is deep and poignant and it makes you look to things -- maybe places where you have been, but more often somewhere that you can't quite pinpoint, and it might feel like a homesickness for a place that you've never been. And so sehnsucht, plus the Gospel really to me equals homeward longing in my sense.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, I love that. Now, I'm a C. S. Lewis geek, and I know that phrase and that word, because this reminds me very much of being a votary of the blue flower.

Amy Baik Lee: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: But could spell sehnsucht for our listeners. We're going to have it in the Show Notes. But could you spell it for us, or am I putting you on the spot?

Amy Baik Lee: Not at all. It's a German term. It's s-e-h-n-s-u-c-h-t.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. And it's okay if you don't remember the word, but you know what it means now. It's this longing, it's this deep achy, wonderful feeling.

And so, Amy, everyone feels it? And if they do, do they always recognize it?

Amy Baik Lee: I don't know if everyone feels in the same way at least. I think that it is very tied to the truth that God has placed eternity in the hearts of man. But I think we have different words for it in different cultures, we have different nuances and descriptions of it.

And then, I'm sorry, your second question was do we all know what to do with it?

Jennifer Rothschild: Or do we recognize it? 'Cause sometimes I wonder if we feel this thing that we can't name. So does everyone recognize it when and if they do feel it?

Amy Baik Lee: Again, like, I don't know if we do all recognize it as the same thing. I think -- actually, that's why in Chapter 3 I kind of go through similar terms that people have used as kind of adjacent terms to sehnsucht. But it was helpful for me on my own journey to kind of try to separate out the similar and yet distinct longings that we might also feel, like homesickness or nostalgia, because to me those are slightly different types of yearning.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, I love that distinction. All right. So you mentioned your own journey. So some might be thinking right now, how did she come to this? I mean, this just doesn't just drop out of the sky and you start thinking, hmm, I think I feel a longing; hmm, I wonder what it is. Okay. Give us a little picture of your journey that got you to this place.

Amy Baik Lee: Yeah. Well, I open the book with the earliest moment that I can remember really. It was around age nine or ten or so in North Carolina. And I had gone with my family on a walk and come across this view of a meadow on an adjacent hillside. And it wasn't, I don't think, anything magical about that particular meadow itself, but maybe it was the meadow and the moment and the way that the light cut across it. But that's the first moment that I can remember standing somewhere and being absolutely taken with the sight of something and feeling it almost to a piercing degree and not knowing what to do with it, except wanting more of it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah.

Amy Baik Lee: So I had moments like that throughout my childhood and into teenage and then young adulthood, and I didn't really ever have a name for them. They just kind of would light up a certain moment in my days and then pass by. But it wasn't until I came across C. S. Lewis' writings actually in "The Weight of Glory" and "Surprised by Joy," somewhere around high school, I think, that I started to realize there was a name for this kind of moment and this kind of longing. And then even then I didn't really have a desire to pursue it much further.

But I would say it was probably after I moved to Colorado, about 13 years ago, that I started to become more familiar with Christian communities. And they were largely art and faith communities where people were freely talking about this longing. Except the interesting thing was that in discussions about sehnsucht, or this inconsolable longing as Lewis puts it, people would talk about it and then be sort of at a loss as to what to do with it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Amy Baik Lee: So I would hear questions like, well, are we just supposed to -- is it meant for more than just stopping you in your tracks? Is it meant for more than just making you feel the distinction between the brokenness of the world and the wholeness that is coming in God's restoration? And the more I thought about it, the more I realized that that longing, when it was allowed to break open in my life and awaken me to the seen and the unseen and eternity breaking through our current reality, I realized that it had really just affected every single area of my life.

So then I started -- I think that was the seed of the idea and the desire to want to tell a story that might encourage other people to lean into the longing and see where it might lead them. And that's really the hope of the book, that it will lead ultimately to a deeper love of God and a recognition of his love for them.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, because he places that longing within us. And when we do begin to feel the ache and long for the satisfaction, even that, as C. S. Lewis said, is very satisfying in and of itself.

But it is not supposed to be a dead end. It is supposed to lead us onward. Because as you mentioned earlier, you know, when you're combining that with the Gospel and this idea that God has placed eternity in our hearts -- okay? So I'm curious if in Scripture -- are there any examples you found in Scripture of eternity pulling at our hearts?

Amy Baik Lee: Yeah. So that verse that I mentioned before about God putting eternity into man's heart, that's from Ecclesiastes 3. I love actually the -- there's little phrases throughout the New Testament where God is acknowledging that we are not at home yet. So in Hebrews 11, in the ESV, you have a reference to us as strangers and exiles on the earth, or the people who came before us in faith were strangers and exiles on the earth. And then 1 Peter urges us as sojourners and exiles to live holy lives. The Phillips translation puts that as strangers and temporary residents.

And then there are other verses about we are clothed in a temporary dwelling, we want our transitory life to be absorbed into life that is eternal. And so I think all of that points to a recognition of our current status as people who are away from home and who long to be home. But everything inherent in that, our current reality, the work that we've been given, and the longing that anybody would have being away from home like the exiles in Babylon were, or had, I think all of that is expressed through these phrases and through the encouragement, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: It captures -- because there's something in us that resonates with it, you know? Sometimes emotionally we're just like, yeah, exactly. And we can't always identify why that is. But you mentioned being exiles. And sometimes we don't tap into that experience. And so I think it's interesting that in your book you write that, "The owner of the home I seek became an exile in my place." Okay, I want to repeat that one more time for our listeners. Okay? "The owner of the home that I seek became an exile in my place." Okay, unpack that for us, Amy.

Amy Baik Lee: Well, I think that's just a way of looking at what Christ gave up for us in order to become one of us and to take on for us and rise that we may have life. And I think it helps me to think of the Gospel in those terms, because sometimes we need a new phrasing of it or a new almost story (audio cuts out) for it to realize how strange and wonderful is the tale that we're in and what has been done for us. And so that is the story of the Gospel, that we didn't have a right, we didn't have an inherent right or a holiness that would permit us to dwell with him forever, so he is the one who left his place and came that we might be able to join him and dwell with him once again.

Jennifer Rothschild: Beautiful. That's so beautiful.

So, you know, as you're describing that, so much of this ache, this eternal longing, is showing what we're made for. But it also kind of points to a destination, a someday. And so if you asked anyone listening right now, Hey, do you want to go to heaven? Of course, yes, we do. Are you longing for heaven? Yeah. Well, kinda, sorta.

In your book, though, it's interesting, you give three practices that have helped you embrace God's promise of new creation, which is eventually heaven someday, the New Heaven, the New Earth. So how is that different from simply wanting to go to heaven? And can you tell us what those practices are, those three practices.

Amy Baik Lee: Yeah. I don't really spell them out in bullet points. I guess they're kind of woven throughout the narrative. But, yes, I think this journey has been so wonderful for me in helping me to realize that -- I think I always had a nebulous view of heaven as a place where all things would be set right and that we would no longer have death and pain and crying, like Revelation says. But I don't know that I ever knew how to imagine anything beyond that. And I certainly hadn't looked any more closely at the different passages in Scripture that talk about it too. But there's very concrete language that is given to describe the restoration that is coming.

So we have the heaven -- I guess theologians kind of -- some of them call it the intermediary heaven, where that's immediately where we go after death. But at the end of the world and at the end of time as we know it right now, there will be a great remaking of this current earth, and we'll have the New Heaven and the New Earth and that will be a wholeness. It will be a restoration, not just of things as -- right before they were unbroken, but something even more whole than that, a place where we will bring our creation mandate to bear, a place where we will be fruitful and multiply and spread all over the earth with work that is not cursed and with worship that pervades everything. And so everything that we're learning to do here as a mode of worship to God, which is not just gathering in churches on Sundays, but it's all of the creative endeavors, it's all of the things that we do for one another, those are the things that we will get to flourish in. So I've just loved that, that we get to think about that and we get to look forward to a life that is full and busy, but not in our sense of busy as we think of it now. But anyway...

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, not a frenetic busy, but a fullness. A fullness.

Amy Baik Lee: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So you said something I want to make sure we clarify here. You mentioned that in the New Heaven, New Earth, when all things are restored, that we will be able to cooperate with this creation mandate. Okay. You said -- is that just being fruitful and multiplying? And, if so, what does that look like?

Amy Baik Lee: Well, yeah. I mean, yes, it's being fruitful and multiplying, but not just in the sense of, you know, spreading in terms of number, banding together in communities.

But Nancy Guthrie says some wonderful things about this in "Even Better Than Eden." And also to share some more -- and I think I quote her in the book as well. But we're talking about the creation mandate for us as sub-creators, as Tolkien would say, that we have a charge, a responsibility, an identity built into us to create in the pattern of the Master Creator. We're creating not things out of nothing, but we're creating -- we're constantly creating. We're called to create, to be created, to take joy in bringing things into being, whether it's a story or it's a beautifully crafted pot or gardening and tending the earth. Like, all of these things are part of the charge that we are given to live full lives in Christ.

And so when Jesus says that, "I have come and I have come that they may have life to the full," that's now part of the imagery that springs immediately to mind to me.

Jennifer Rothschild: And it's all just a shadow, isn't it? It's just a shadow of the fullness to come.

All right, so here we are on this side. I'm curious if you've had any surprising places that you've seen a glimpse of God's glory or the wholeness that he promised.

Amy Baik Lee: Yes. I'll just weave this into the three practices that I --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, good.

Amy Baik Lee: Sorry. I did mention earlier, but --

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, it's because I jumped ahead. So good, go ahead.

Amy Baik Lee: So I think three ways that have helped me to keep the reality of the restoration at the forefront have been to look for him in daily moments of beauty and to receive those as live communication from him. And those are constant surprises because I'm never sure what he's going to show me or how he's going to show up in a day. And I try to record some of those.

Another mode, I think, has been to encounter the world through eyes of wonder. And a lot of times that comes through being around a child, actually, because they're so good at it.

The third one I would think of, actually, in terms of surprising places has been in the midst of pain. That one really surprises me. Because I have some chronic conditions, and I think the thing that I grapple with most is the anxiety disorder that I have that kind of exacerbates everything else. But I have seen him come through in unexpected places in the midst of pain so that -- in such ways that his presence is undeniable and it feels like -- I'm going to quote Tolkien again -- but it feels like a eucatastrophe. It feels like a surprise that arises suddenly out of darkness. And it's not where it should be, but you have joy in the midst of pain. So I'm exceedingly grateful for that, and that has been one of the most surprising places that I've seen him come through.

Jennifer Rothschild: And that is accessible to all of us when we are in Christ and he's in us. And I appreciate you sharing that, because I think a lot of us think that the beauty of God is reserved only for the beautiful moments and the beautiful places, and there is a beauty that comes in the midst of the darkness.

I have a friend, an author named Margaret Feinberg. She calls it in the brutiful, the brutal and the beautiful. And, yeah, that is where we can see. So I appreciate you sharing that.

All right, we're going to get toward our last question here. And, Amy, what I'm mindful of is -- well, and I'll just disclose this. I am writing, actually, a Bible study on heaven, so so much of what you're talking about is resonating with me, besides the fact that I'm a major Lewis geek. And you can never overquote Tolkien and Lewis, may I just add.

But here's the thing. We can get so focused on the then, that the now seems lesser than. Or we can get so -- like, okay, Lord, I'm just waiting to exhale on that day when you're going to make all things right, yet through Christ we have been made right in our relationship with him here. So my question to you -- and this may be a more difficult one to ask. And so for those of you out there who are so concrete in your thinking and you're hoping for a list here, you may not get it. Okay? So just ask the Lord for wisdom as we're kind of talking through this last question.

But, Amy, how would you suggest, in some practical ways, that we can actually steward this life now, our temporary home right here right now? Not treat it as lesser than, but treat it as the best gift God has given us?

Amy Baik Lee: That's such a good question. I think that's at the heart of what I'm trying to do with this book. I would say living into the reality that Jesus has told us that the Kingdom of God is coming, but it's also here among us right now and it's in the midst of us and it's breaking through. I think that there is all the worth of our lives summed up in that statement that it's worth paying attention to the Kingdom in our midst and to the Kingdom that is breaking through.

Because, yes, we're waiting for wholeness and healing and restoration, but here is where we get to walk with him. And here, I believe, is where we get to see God in a capacity that we will not get to see him in in the new creation and in restoration, because it's here that we see him right alongside the brokenness. And it's here that we get to wait for him and watch for him and see the overtures to his love to us breaking through, no matter what the afflictions of the present moment are. And as that relationship with him grows and as that adventure grows -- and it breaks us at times, I know -- but as we build that history with him.

When I think of what it might be like when we arrive to our long-awaited home and we look back, I think it will be those stories that we remember that make us cry, that help us when we come face-to-face with him to remember all that he has been to us, and all that we know him to be, and that is going to add an immeasurably sweet note of worship to him for eternity because we have seen him here and we have walked with him here.

And so if anything, I would say as we're living on this earth, it's worth it to embrace everything that is given to us to the full extent that we can, to lean into our lament and our grief and our sorrow, but also our celebration and our joy, and to embrace that, because it's here that we'll get to see him and hear that he keeps surprising us. So I hope that as that happens, that we fall more and more deeply in love with him as we understand the depth of his character and we see the constancy of his tenderness towards us.

Jennifer Rothschild: I think that was well said. Beautiful, Amy.

You know, so much of her conversation, obviously, K.C., reminded me of C. S. Lewis, but especially the part -- you know, it reminds me of "The Great Divorce," what she was talking about. Because when C. S. Lewis gets to what he thinks is heaven, he meets with, like, his master teacher, and the teacher says, you know, once you get here and you look back, you realize -- I'm paraphrasing -- it was heaven all along. I mean, it was beautiful.

K.C. Wright: Of course it reminded you of Lewis. She is our kind of people.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, she is.

K.C. Wright: I really loved how she brought out the reality that Jesus said the Kingdom is coming, but it is here. It is breaking through even now.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

K.C. Wright: The Kingdom is here.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yep.

K.C. Wright: Here is where we get to walk with him. Here is where we get to experience him in a way that we won't experience him later.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. I thought that was really cool, because here is in the brokenness, right? Then we will be whole. So when we arrive and we look back, there will be even sweeter praise for how we walked with him and knew him here.

K.C. Wright: All right. This was so, so good, I want to listen to it again.

And you need her book. You may know someone, while you were listening that came to mind, that also needs her book. So we will have a link on the Show Notes, as always, so you can get it. And we will have a link to Nancy Guthrie's book that Amy mentioned.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah. Good, good. Yeah.

K.C. Wright: Plus, we are giving one of Amy's books away. Go to Jennifer's Instagram, or you can also get there through the Show Notes at 413podcast.com/309. That's 413podcast.com/309. And, of course, right there a transcript is waiting just for you.

Well, our friends, this one's a wrap, sadly. Remember, you can tune into eternity even now because you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

Jennifer and K.C.: And you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I imagined her having this conversation sitting at that desk, surrounded by her husband's woodwork, listening to the beautiful music. She's so peaceful.