4:13 Podcast: Can I Overcome What Overwhelms Me? With Trina McNeilly [Episode 197]

Jennifer Rothschild: The first thing that comes to mind when you hear the word "unclutter" is usually your house, right? Well, today author Trina McNeilly wants you to take a closer look at where the home really is: your soul. You're going to learn that you can transform your life using what she calls the three O's: Observing, Owning, and Overcoming obstacles to become the healthiest version of yourself. So let's clean up some internal clutter. All right, K.C., here we go.

K.C. Wright: Here we go. Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can really do all things through Christ who strengthens you. Now, welcome your host -- she's about 5-2, but that doesn't account for her attitude. Let me tell you, it's a lot bigger than that -- Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Welcome, our friends. We are so glad you're here. It's just two friends and one topic, zero stress. I'm Jennifer. My goal is to help you be and do more than you feel capable of. And I just got to say, if you've been listening to the podcast for a while, you may have noticed that the last several episodes K.C. and I sounded a little different. We were having some technical difficulties for about four or five episodes.

K.C. Wright: Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Rothschild: So thank you so much for hanging with us. You can tell we sound better now, right?

K.C. Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Thank you for all of the technology being cleared up and cleaned up, and thanks for your patience with it. We've been busy around here at the 4:13.

K.C. Wright: Speaking of busy, I just want to say, who are you? Like, who are you?

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh.

K.C. Wright: Okay, let me just paint this picture really quick for you. Okay?

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. Start painting, yes.

K.C. Wright: I come over and, you know, we have a job to do, a mission to do, and we get into this little closet under J.R.'s stairs a couple of times a month and we knock these podcasts out, which really is the highlight of my week. I love it. But J.R. does not tell me what she's doing throughout the week. I just see her on podcast day, right? She's busy, you know, I'm busy. We just meet on podcast day. And here's the deal. Ellie and I are having dinner the other night, and we pull up the old YouTube to see what inspirational message we can hear while we're chowing down on supper, and there's J.R. speaking on stage at Liberty University. So who are you? Like, honestly, I can't believe you didn't tell me this.

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm sorry I didn't tell you.

K.C. Wright: What was it like walking out on stage in front of thousands of people?

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, 10, 10,000 people. Okay, 10,000.

K.C. Wright: And can I just say one more thing? You are so anointed. Like, seriously. I give all the glory to God, and I know you do too, but for you to stand out there on that stage for over an hour, and a wellspring of life flowing out of your heart and your mouth --

Jennifer Rothschild: That's sweet, K.C.

K.C. Wright: I mean, it was excellent. It was excellence in every way. And I've watched your sermon about three times. I've had it on while I've cleaned the house. And I encourage you right now to go to YouTube and look up "Jennifer Rothschild, Liberty University."

Jennifer Rothschild: We'll even try to have a link on the show notes.

K.C. Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: But I will tell you this. It was easy to share with that audience because they were the best audience ever. I really didn't know what to expect, K.C., quite honestly. I did not know it was 10,000 people when I said I would be happy to do it. But those students were so engaged, so kind. A generous audience, really responsive. They paid attention. You know, I got to be honest, I was expecting a lot of just filling their duty by being there --

K.C. Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and being on their iPhones. No, they were totally engaged.

K.C. Wright: No. And I saw that. And I've been to Bible school and we had to do something like that once a week, you know.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

K.C. Wright: But, no, you had them in the palm of your hand.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, they were a great audience. And I had not been to Liberty University, and it was refreshing the caliber of student, the commitment to excellence that Liberty has. I got to then, of course, eat with some of the -- well, with the president and some of the VPs and just some of the really integral people in -- the ones who establish and maintain the culture of the university. Quality, just quality people. Quality in every way.

And I got to be honest, too. As a speaker, you know, they were just so kind to me. Like, when I arrived, there were gifts on my bed in the hotel room.

K.C. Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: I got to just tell you this. Okay?

K.C. Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Maybe I even have a picture. And if I do, I'll put it on the show notes.

All right, so there was this beautiful -- two black boxes tied with a black ribbon. The bottom box, I opened it. It was larger. It was a soft blanket with the letter R embroidered. Okay, how thoughtful, right?

K.C. Wright: Oh, my goodness.

Jennifer Rothschild: The top box, it had three things in it. On the left, it had some special soap that they make there.

K.C. Wright: And you love soap.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love soap.

K.C. Wright: How did they know?

Jennifer Rothschild: And it said, something like, "This is to keep you fresh," or whatever. It was sweet. In the middle was a jar of personalized M & M's that had my name on them with "Liberty University."

K.C. Wright: What?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. And then on the right were two teabags. The first tea bag said -- it was a chamomile blend and it said something like, "Goodnight Tea. This is for you to get a good night's sleep, because tomorrow morning you're speaking to our students," or something, but it said it much more clever.

K.C. Wright: Unbelievable.

Jennifer Rothschild: And then the second tea bag was the one for the morning, and it said, "Wake up. You're about to speak to the largest gathering of students in the world."

K.C. Wright: Unbelievable.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, K.C., the quality. I mean, that's just a little indication. So anyway -- but more than anything, it gave me so much hope for the future, the quality of students, the spiritual commitment to excellence spiritually and academically. It was just a win. So, yeah --

K.C. Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- I was very thankful. But I will say, knowing what our topic is today, I was definitely overwhelmed, I got to be honest. I was really quiet. I don't get super nervous that I feel nervous before I speak, but I was really quiet. And I knew leading into it, I was very overwhelmed when I realized, oh, my gosh, this is a much bigger deal than I realized. I'm so grateful I didn't know what I was getting into, because I was overwhelmed.

K.C. Wright: We would have never known by watching you. Never known.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, that's what the Lord does. That's what the Lord does.

K.C. Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And it's always easier -- just for those of you who are nervous about public speaking, for me, dreading is much harder than doing. As soon as I get on that stage and open my mouth, it's easy.

K.C. Wright: Yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's the anticipation that's hard --

K.C. Wright: Right, right.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- right? Yeah.

K.C. Wright: I say yes to everything, and then about it a week before, "Why did I say yes?"

Jennifer Rothschild: I know, right? It's because of the dread.

K.C. Wright: It's the dread.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know. It's easier to stay in your PJs and do nothing.

K.C. Wright: And then after you get done speaking, you're like, "Well, where am I going next?"

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

K.C. Wright: Who has the next hot mic for my story?

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen. Well, K.C., this is your hot mic right here, my bro bro.

K.C. Wright: All right.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, let's get to Trina because -- we're going to love this conversation. I really did, and I know our 4:13ers will also.

K.C. Wright: Trina McNeilly is the author and founder of "La La Lovely," where she has been writing and building community online for 13 years sharing matters of the heart and design-related finds. Her work also includes creative direction, styling, and design projects. Trina lives in Nashville, Tennessee, with her husband and their four children.

Are you ready for this? Settle in and enjoy this conversation with Trina and Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Trina, we are going to start with your title of your book. We got to know right up front, what in the world is soul clutter?

Trina McNeilly: I know, that is the number one question. So when I -- I first like to kind of define what I mean by the word "soul," because we use it a lot interchangeably with heart or spirit. And when I'm talking about soul, I'm talking about your mind, your will, and your emotions, so anything really that is taking up a lot of space in your mind and in your emotions. So for me, when I tell people what my soul clutter is, was, stress, anxiety, depression, emotional pain, things that were kind of sending me signals and I was ignoring for a while. And if you don't pay attention to those, then they can turn into greater things, you know. Like for me, I'm kind of a melancholy person. It doesn't mean necessarily I'm depressed. If I don't pay attention, it can go to sadness and then to depression. If we don't pay attention maybe to our coping mechanisms, then that can result in addictions. So soul clutter can be different things for different people. Those are just some ideas of what soul clutter is. And in the book, I have a list. Again, not an exhaustive list, but one to get you thinking and paying attention about what's going on on the inside of you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Because all of us have got it. All of us have got some soul clutter. And so you named some of yours, which I think most of us can identify with to one level or another. So I'm curious for you, what is it that brought you to a place of realizing, okay, I got all this soul clutter and so now I got to do something about it? What happened in your life that brought you to that place?

Trina McNeilly: Yeah. You know, some of it was just like a low hum a while. And I knew it was there, but I really wasn't paying close attention. And I write in the book about my story and how I was just able to cope and go along with these things, and then everything started to kind of unravel in my life as I knew it. My parents went through a divorce after nearly 40 years of marriage; my husband was starting businesses, we were having some financial issues; the depression and anxiety went off the chart, and still I really was trying to just cope and manage. I had four little children at the time. And then I started having physical problems. You know, anxiety and stress were not letting me just ignore them any longer. And that's what happens as -- you know, our body will begin to speak if we won't listen to our soul.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Yeah. You know, you think about it just -- even with your closet. If you just keep having clutter in there and piling it in and pushing it to the back, eventually you open the door and it's going to all fall out on top of you. I mean, it's just -- your body does the same thing, it keeps the score. Sometimes it is smarter than we are in some ways, and that's a hard wake-up call.

But what I love about your book is what you are doing is giving us all an opportunity to do some inventory so we don't get to that point. And I appreciate that because in your book you get super practical and you teach us about the three O's. That's what I call them anyway. So tell us what the three O's are that will help us with overcoming this kind of stuff, especially when it comes to, like, our past challenges and struggles and stuff.

Trina McNeilly: Yes. So the three O's are Observe, Own, and Overcome. And it's an overarching process that gets very detailed in the book, like you mentioned. But it's also -- now as I've kind of been walking through it daily, where I'm able to use it quickly, there's a long form and a short-term process that can really serve you as you carry on and you want to continue on and have a healthy soul. So now I catch myself in the day and think, you know, when I get overwhelmed when somebody says something to me that doesn't sit very well or I'm hurt or offended by, or just life happens, stress, I'm able to stop in the moment and observe. And then I work to own it -- that's kind of the hard stage -- and then overcome it. So those are the -- that's a quick description of the three O's.

Jennifer Rothschild: A quick description which takes a lot more work and unlayering to pull off, I'm sure.

Trina McNeilly: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love you said that about observed, because for years I realized -- I didn't know I was doing this, but this is why observation is important. I realized I was not an observer; I was just an absorber. I would just --

Trina McNeilly: Wow. Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- swallow it down, suck it in, move forward. And it was very enlightening to me when I realized, oh, that's what I was doing and that absorption kept me from observation. So when I shifted, then I realized, man, I was absorbing stuff that was not mine to absorb. I was, you know, owning the wrong things. So I appreciate how you take us through that process. And I'd be curious as a woman -- because most of our listeners are women -- how would a woman begin to -- okay, so she looks at her life and she's like, yeah, I got -- all that clutter that Trina mentioned at the beginning, I got it. I got it going on. How can she really begin to take inventory? Because that's overwhelming. That's another O that we would like to avoid. So how can she take inventory?

Trina McNeilly: Yeah. So I have a whole chapter and awesome download that comes with the book to help you inventory your clutter. But it is a lot of introspection. And I find that observe -- you know, there's two ways. I love how you said absorb. That gave me really great language. Because there are those of us that we don't want to take a look at what's happening. And I'm a natural observer as a writer, and then I just get completely paralyzed because it's just so much and too much information and I can't move on to take action. So that's why all of these steps are important.

But I think when somebody wants to begin to observe -- you know, the other two words I use for that is paying attention. And you just begin to start to pay attention almost like you're watching your life. Sometimes I think that way as a writer, like, my life is a movie. And so I kind of look at it from the outside looking in. For me, one way that I observe is I use my journal. And I know everyone is not a journaler, and it's like, oh, that's great, Trina, you're a writer. But I often use my journal to list things out to help myself get what's on the inside. I might be observing it, but I can't get it out, then -- you know, you're so much in your head. So I use that. And I use it to list. Maybe if I wake up feeling a certain way, I might write that down. Or maybe at the end of the day, kind of just bullet points of what the day looked like. And they'll really paint a picture of what's going on for us. So that's one way you can begin to take inventory.

And really, I liken it so much, like you said, to the closet, to actual physical decluttering. When you're physically decluttering, you just have to get into everything. You know, you open that basement door or the garage or the attic, whatever it is for you, the closet, and it's like, oh, I do not want to go through this. You know, if you only do a little portion, there's often so much that you're missing and it affects the space in the closet. It affects everything if you don't go through all of it.

So we got to just open up the door, take a good long look, and then commit to going through and asking ourselves, maybe, why am I feeling this way? Was there something that was said? Is there something from childhood? Just get very introspective. But the first thing we have to do, even before we do that or bullet point in our journals, is be open to being still with ourselves.

Jennifer Rothschild: Which is hard.

Trina McNeilly: It is.

Jennifer Rothschild: A lot of people have trouble with that. And even just the idea of silence. One of the things that I've noticed, Trina, is because of the way we have information at our fingertips 24 hours a day, people will not even sit in silence for five minutes. They will be scrolling on their phone. Even little pieces of silence like that, learning to be still with ourself, is a good discipline to begin because it prepares us to be able to take some inventory. But if we're not used to the practice of just stillness, it's difficult just to do a full stop and start reconsidering and considering all of our clutter.

Trina McNeilly: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: You mentioned about paying attention. And I remember in your book you say that paying attention precedes change. Now, I think this is really obvious on the surface, but sometimes our hearts miss this. So tell us, why do we have to really pause and observe our clutter before we can just take action? Because sometimes we just want to go for the action.

Trina McNeilly: Right. Right. And I -- like I told you, I'm kind of on the opposite end where I was just sitting in this observing for so long and I really felt God leading me, like, "We have to take action now." So wherever you are, whichever end of the spectrum that you're on, it is really important that you pay attention. For me, it was kind of a wake-up call of, all right, you are kind of stuck here, but this is not for naught. Like, we're taking what we're learning and we're going to use that to take the next action step.

And when I really got a clear picture of what was happening -- and sometimes that came by way of other people, so I kind of want to go back real quick to when you asked me how do we take inventory. One thing I want to mention is we don't do it alone. It is introspective work. But, you know, when we are believers, we live in community, and we need to invite people -- you know, when we commit to this process of uncluttering our soul, God's going to bring people into your life to help you along the way and help you see what you might be too close to seeing.

And so that was kind of the case for me. And while I was observing a lot, I wasn't getting the full picture. My grandma, who is a hero of mine -- she's in heaven now in the great cloud of witness -- but she pointed out to me, "Trina, you are drowning in emotional pain." And I couldn't see that because I was just too close to it. Yes, I knew I was hurting. I probably could have told you at that point I was depressed, but I didn't really know how to name it as emotional pain. So she helped do that. And then when she did, when I really paid attention to that and had language for it, then I knew that there is a next step and I can take action. Which for me -- you know, she gave me a book, which at first I said, "Oh, this doesn't have anything to do with me," and it sat on the shelf for a while. But the Holy Spirit just keeps working. And so eventually I pulled that book down and, wow, it was pretty life changing for me.

And then I knew I needed to work through that emotional pain, I needed help with that. So I was able to make the decision to see a counselor and began to work through the pain and to be able to talk to friends that I grew up with that were able to help me process maybe where I picked up some of that pain in childhood.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's really healthy. And that's a good perspective, because a lot of times we just say, okay, if the name of this is I am depressed, I'm probably depressed, I need to get undepressed, so I'm going to get undepressed. Whereas what you're saying is through observation and through the wisdom of your grandmother, you were able to see, okay, no, the depression is the fruit, the root is the emotional pain. So we're going to deal with healing the emotional pain and, therefore, that's going to cut the fruit off at the root. And I think sometimes we take it the opposite direction. So it's beautiful and -- I say beautiful. It's difficult, but it is a beautiful process. May we all be humble enough to invite others into our lives so that they can speak in, because we are not often the most objective when it comes to our own lives.

You mentioned, Trina, early on, the definition of the soul, the mind, will, and the emotions. Okay? So with that in mind, here's a question. We got busy minds and we got very loud and sometimes bossy emotions, and they can take up a ton of space. So how is it that we can cut through this kind of clutter and harness our will to help us out with this process?

Trina McNeilly: Yes. Yeah, and that is the key. I think for me, I had to look back. And I remembered when I was, like, ten, I was really bossy because, you know, I was the oldest child and nobody told me not to be at that point yet, and I just thought, you know, "I'm a girl boss" before there ever was that term. Then I grew up and people were like, "Well, stop telling me what to do," and so forth.

But I kind of had to tap into ten-year-old Trina and use my will and be the boss of my life as I also found out that I was avoiding a lot of things, I was letting life happen to me. I was feeling very powerless and then living that way. And so I had to invoke that will. And the Lord gives us that so that we can choose our own actions. Sometimes that does not work out well for us, but he's Father enough that he allows us to do that. But with that will, we have determination and willingness, and so I had to really start to get bossy with those emotions. I still do. Because the thing about soul clutter is it can just kind of keep coming back, like anything, like mail keeps coming in the house, and gifts at Christmas and so forth. We have to -- we can't just ignore those things. Just like you said, it just will pile up and take over.

So, yeah, we can be the boss, we can assert our will, we can make choices. And I think it's hard because when you're drowning in soul clutter, you do feel very powerless. And I very much identify and understand that. But for me, then, it came down to maybe today my only choice is my attitude. And then I would have to choose that and look at the small choices I had. Because there was a season where a lot of bad things were happening that were out of my control but were causing me great stress. And so I had to look at the choices I could make and begin to take ownership of them.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, I totally get this. Let's take it a little deeper, more precise here. Because like you just mentioned, these forms of soul clutter, like stress or anxiety or whatever it may be, they are things we cannot avoid. They do just come and happen. So how do we, in a very practical way, continue to live this very free and spacious life in the midst of it all? Is it those daily choices?

Trina McNeilly: Yeah, I very much believe that it is. And I think that you're right, stress -- I talk about two types of stress in the book. I call it everyday stress and then there's chronic stress. So if we don't deal with everyday stress -- which there's no way to avoid, it's just part of life -- then it becomes chronic. And so we have to not push those things aside, we have to learn to self-regulate. That was a big thing for me, which meant I had to kind of observe my emotional age, which was that of a teenager, and find ways to self-regulate. Not unhealthy coping mechanisms, but regulate.

So for me, to be super practical, I -- when I face stress, which is often with four kids --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, gosh, yes.

Trina McNeilly: -- I have to pay attention to am I going to sleep on time or am I staying up really late because that's my only alone time and I want my alone time and then I'm crabby the next day? Am I moving my body? Which I look at it so different than exercise now. I look at it as movement to get the thoughts moving out of my head, out of my head into my body, and carry it all on my own. Those are some very practical things you can do, but I think those choices really make a big difference.

Jennifer Rothschild: Those are great. I love those choices. Very practical.

All right, girl, this -- I'm highly recommending the book, because there's just no way in this conversation we can understand all that you help us understand in the book. And so I'm highly recommending it because it's worth a slow read and processing at all. But for the sake of time, this is our last question.

Trina McNeilly: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. Can you give us -- so someone's really piqued their interest here. Give her three things that she can do even now, like when this podcast ends, to begin the process of uncluttering and creating space for new narratives to grow.

Trina McNeilly: Okay. I would say -- I probably just named a few in the last question.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Trina McNeilly: But I want you to practice stillness. Kind of like what you were saying, Jennifer, we have a really hard time -- me too even. And I actually love stillness, but I've been struggling lately. I'll be in the line at the grocery store or whatever and then you just start the scroll. And we're not giving ourselves time to just hear our own thoughts and hear our heart and our soul. So practice just sitting with yourself in quiet. You know, set a timer on your phone -- those are really helpful -- and begin to listen. And then maybe just list out on a piece of paper -- it doesn't even have to be a journal -- what you hear or what you're feeling so that you just start to practice noticing.

Jennifer Rothschild: Learn to listen to the Holy Spirit and yourself. Such good stuff today, right?

K.C. Wright: As always. I'm telling you, I took notes, and that's a big deal for me. But let me remind you of the three O's. Number one, Observe. Acknowledge the clutter. That's easy to do. I have clutter. Okay. Number two, Own. Make space for a healthy internal environment. And number three, Overcome, meaning take action with tools for living clutter free from the inside out.

Jennifer Rothschild: Good job. Good notes there.

K.C. Wright: I'm on it, I'm telling you.

Now, you'll want to review Trina's words, not just my summary of them, so go to the show notes right now. We have it all right there for you. 413podcast.com/197 to read a transcript. And you'll find a link there to get her book called "Unclutter Your Soul: Overcome What Overwhelms You."

Jennifer Rothschild: Mm-hmm. Okay, our people, our family, this was really good. And next week is going to be really good too because we've got an author and a professor and he's talking about how to get unstuck in your prayer life. And by the way, the reason I tell you this is because the podcasts that we do on prayer, they are always the ones with the biggest downloads. So this is a thing clearly, a thing we need.

K.C. Wright: Yeah. So follow the 4:13 Podcast, if you haven't yet, and you'll know when a new episode drops every week. And when you're there subscribing, please give us a nice review. A rating and a review goes a long, long way. It's not about us, it's reaching more, one heart at a time for Jesus. It really does make a difference.

So until next week remember, you can do the hard things. You can do the hard work of uncluttering because you can do all things through Christ who gives you supernatural strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

Jennifer and K.C.: And you can.

K.C. Wright: For sure.

Jennifer Rothschild: So here's one of the most fun things about being at Liberty, by the way. When I was done with lunch after the chapel -- or convocation. They call it convocation because it's a gathering. And they brought me out this, like -- I don't know what else to call it except a gift trolley. Okay. They rolled it out and they opened these doors, and it's all these little things that weren't so little, like purses and sunglasses and scarves and just -- "We want you to have something that you want that will remind you." So I got a lovely turquoise leather bag.

K.C. Wright: What?

Jennifer Rothschild: And every time I carry it, I'm like, "This is my Liberty bag." (Singing) Liberty, Liberty, Liberty.

K.C. Wright: Oh, my gosh. It's the little things, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: It's the little things.