4:13 Podcast: Can I See Miracles Even In My Mistakes? With Hope Carpenter [Episode 178]

Hope Carpenter: So it led to nine years, Jennifer, of living a double life, of trying to be picture perfect in the office and at church and in the home and then living for the weekend or the next girls' trip, or whatever, you know, I was thinking was the good life, the letting the steam off. And, man, it was tough. It was so, so, so, so, so tough.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hope Carpenter nearly destroyed her family, her church, and her ministry by living a double life. But then God did something miraculous. Out of her brokenness, he made something beautiful. On today's 413 Podcast, Hope is going to tell the story while she helps you understand your own. She's going to give you practical steps to recover from mistakes and get on a path of honesty and healing. So cue the intro. Here we go.

K.C. Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you. Now, your host and my soul sister, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, our people, welcome. I'm Jennifer, here to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you live the "I Can" life of Philippians 4:13. It is Christ's power in you. Back in the day, K.C., my two favorite words of Philippians 4:13 were "I can" --

K.C. Wright: Uh-huh.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- uh-huh -- until I couldn't and realized that's not supposed to be the two favorite words. It's "through Christ."

K.C. Wright: That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so whatever you're facing today, our friends, you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. And you might have tuned in especially, or be curious, by the mistakes concept, that there can be good things that come from mistakes.

K.C. Wright: That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hope's going to unpack that today. We're going to get right to our conversation, but before we do, I want to just give you heads-up about a couple things. Her story is really good -- hard, but good -- and you're going to hear her mention something. She's going to talk about some choices she made that were bad choices for her -- okay? -- and they include things like -- that might not be a big deal to you. Okay? She talks about alcohol, secular music, and wearing two-piece swimsuits. K.C., I don't think you struggle with the wearing of a two-piece swimsuit, right?

K.C. Wright: Not at all.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, good. Just making sure. But when you hear her talk about that, in case you are, like, sitting on a beach in a two-piece, sipping a Margarita while playing Beatles in the background, I want you to hear her out. Because she's not trashing those things. Okay? She really is not trashing those things. And she's not even calling them out in and of themselves. What she's going to do is talk about what they represented in her life. And it was what they represented in her life that was a very negative thing. Okay. So also, another heads-up. She does briefly mention rape, and I want anyone who might have sensitivity or concern in that area to be aware of that. She does not in any way discuss it, but she's just going to mention it, so I wanted you to have a heads-up. Okay, that's all the stuff I wanted you to know before you get to meet this amazing lady. And by the way, she actually sent me a mug that says, "You're Amazing and Never Forget It," and that's what I was drinking out of this morning. So, K.C., let's meet Hope Carpenter.

K.C. Wright: Hope Carpenter is the co-founder of Redemption Church, a megachurch in Greenville, South Carolina, with satellite locations in San Jose, Raleigh, and the Dominican Republic. She's the author of "The Most Beautiful Disaster: How God Makes Miracles Out of Our Mistakes." You will really, I promise, enjoy this life-giving conversation between Hope and Jennifer. So pull up a chair, there's room at the table for you. Let's listen in.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hope, I got to start with the hard thing. Okay?

Hope Carpenter: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: Because you were living a double life and it almost destroyed everything and everyone you valued. So I know it's a hard place to start, but I think we need to start there. So would you take us to that difficult season of your life.

Hope Carpenter: It was in the year 2004. That sounds so historical, like I'm writing a history book, because it seems so far away now. But it was in 2004 that literally my life just took a downward spiral. At that time I was 35 years old and had been married to a preacher for 15 years. We'd been in full-time ministry. At that point, we actually could go out to eat on Friday night and buy a hotdog. It wasn't difficult anymore. Because we started our Church with three people, it was just really hard times. No insurance for our children, lots of debt. And I have to just give you just a little snippet behind the fall-apart so you'll understand.

Jennifer Rothschild: Sure, yeah.

Hope Carpenter: I was raised in a very traumatic home. A Christian home nonetheless, but very strict and abusive and -- verbally, emotionally, physically. Then I was raped when I was 15 years old and didn't get help for any of that. You know, I just thought that's just what happens in life and you just brush it under the rug. I'll be okay, you know, just present perfect to everybody. And had no idea, Jennifer, that I was taking all that pain into my adulthood. I thought when I met this amazing man, Ron Carpenter, with that long blonde hair flowing in the wind, that I was changing my name and changing my address and everything was going to be fine. And that was not the case. I went into adulthood with a lot of buried pain. And then, lo and behold, the pressure of ministry, had no idea. I wasn't raised in a ministry home, so had no clue. I just love people. I love God and I love people and had no idea the pressure. And then again, starting the church with no money, no insurance, the bills, the kids. We had three kids under four years old.

Jennifer Rothschild: Gosh. Pressure.

Hope Carpenter: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Big pressure.

Hope Carpenter: Yeah, yeah. That pressure cooker, you know, like your grandmama used to use to cook beans, that's what I was. It was boiling, boiling, boiling. So at 35, in 2004 I literally woke up one day and it exploded. Just said, "I can't live like this anymore." Didn't know what it meant, did not know what that looked like. I just knew that I could not live in that pressure cooker another day. Now, I didn't know then -- I know now after lots of counseling and therapy -- that I looked at it as it was the life I was currently in that was causing so much pressure. Had no idea that it was the building blocks of all my life, the pressure that had just exploded. So I'm looking at Ron, I'm looking at ministry, I'm looking at all of it saying, "You're the problem, you're the culprit, I got to get out of here." So I started down a path of things that probably should have happened. And I write a whole chapter about it in my book -- it's called "Individuation" -- because I was never allowed to do that. As a teenager, I was never allowed to go to the sock hops, the dances, the parties, the -- you know, choose who I want to date, wear the bikini. Never allowed that. So I started that at 35.

Jennifer Rothschild: Interesting.

Hope Carpenter: Yeah. And not a good mix for ministry.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, no.

Hope Carpenter: No. And especially on a public stage as big as it had gotten at that point. Ron was on worldwide TV, all the stations, the Daystars the TBNs, all that. And I thought I was letting off the steam, letting off the pressure. But can you imagine all the pressure I was putting on me on top of that because I wasn't getting real help. So it led to nine years, Jennifer, of living a double life of trying to be picture perfect in the office and at church and in the home, and then living for the weekend or the next girls' trip or whatever, you know, I was thinking was the good life, the letting the steam off. And, man, it was tough. It was so, so, so, so, so tough.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's a hard difficult story, I know, to live, to tell and to hear. I get all that, I really do, and I really appreciate it. Because as you said, it creates the Velveteen Rabbit effect. You know, we love people who are real and life has rubbed them hard, but we can relate to it. We all can. And in your book, you talk about you made a series of small bad choices.

Hope Carpenter: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Which I think this is really interesting. But that led to the big regrets. So explain that process to us and give us some red flags that we can look at to know if our lives are heading off track.

Hope Carpenter: Absolutely. That day I woke up in 2004 -- I tell people now, and people giggle and laugh about it, but, man, it was huge to me, the choices I made that day. Remember, I'm in ministry. So I left that day and I went and did three things that were, like, huge for me. I went and bought a bikini. Oooooo, you know, because that is just taboo. That was taboo in my world. And I bought three secular CDs. And another oooooo. You know, nobody listened to secular music in my world. It was just all the Christian music. We burned all those albums -- remember? -- in high school, because the devil was in them, and backmasking and all that stuff.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Hope Carpenter: So then I bought a six-pack of beer. Man, that was the big one. You're on a Slip 'N Slide straight to hell. But I went to our lake house and I got on the dock and I put Hawaiian Tropic all over me, and it smelled and felt so good. You know, my stomach was finally going to be tanned. And I listened to the secular music and I drank the beer and I felt so incredibly free. But it was only free for a moment because -- you know, sin, it's never enough. So that would lead to another weekend. That would lead to not just a six-pack of beer, but it would lead to different kinds of drinks and different kinds of people. And then you need it more and more because that void is never filled with the things of the world. And Psalm 107:9 says only Jesus can satisfy the longings of our soul. And what is our soul? It's our mind, our will, our emotions. And my emotional man, from what I did and did not get growing up in childhood, was so depleted, and I was going to all these different wells trying to fill it. And even being in ministry, had no idea that -- because it temporarily felt good. So it's the lie of the enemy then that makes you feel like this is what it is because it feels good. But truly, only Jesus can satisfy the longings of our soul. So it led from one small thing to the next thing, to another mistake and another mistake. And meeting this person, I eventually was unfaithful to my husband. And, you know, I never would have dreamed --

Jennifer Rothschild: Of course.

Hope Carpenter: -- that I would be in that situation because, truthfully, I loved my husband. Even in this dark place, I loved him. And I loved the Lord. So, man, the pressure was just piling on me.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, you describe this so beautifully, Hope. Because what's interesting is, like, in and of itself, there's not one thing wrong with a two-piece bathing suit.

Hope Carpenter: No.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I mean, some of them I don't think some women should wear --

Hope Carpenter: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- but that's another story. Okay. But -- there's nothing wrong with that inherently, there's nothing wrong with a secular song inherently, but what you're saying is it became wrong for you because it became a substitute.

Hope Carpenter: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: For you it was a little source of just rebellion and --

Hope Carpenter: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- self-satisfaction in an indulgent way, neglecting where those same longings could have been met by Christ. Is that what you're saying?

Hope Carpenter: Absolutely. Absolutely. And it was out of time. You know, those things are supposed to be done in your teenage years, in your 13, 14, 15, 16 when you have the oversight of a parent, when you do have some boundaries. But you have to touch your fingers to the stove, so to speak, and burn your fingers for yourself to learn those lessons early in the correct boundaries so that you're not derailing and coming off the rails so hard, like I did in adulthood. And, you know, the world calls that a midlife crisis. But it's really, you know, individuating.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah. Well, and so if somebody's listening to you and they can't identify totally with your story, what are in general just some red flags that you might be starting to derail?

Hope Carpenter: Well, you know, for me, the biggest one was -- and I can remember it just like it was yesterday -- me saying things like, "What about me? Don't I deserve to be happy?" You know, "What about Hope time?" You know, "I need my time. What about me?"

Jennifer Rothschild: Interesting.

Hope Carpenter: All of those questions because -- and in itself we do need time. We do. We got to take a break. We got to have some breathing time. We got to go to Target by ourself --

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

Hope Carpenter: -- without our children.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Amen.

Hope Carpenter: We got to smell every shampoo and conditioner that we want to smell, and every candle we want to smell, for three hours.

Jennifer Rothschild: You are my kind of girl. Yes.

Hope Carpenter: We have to have that. But when it comes to -- truthfully, the Christian life is about dying. It really is about dying, and my will and my wants and my desires are crucified. I am crucified with Christ. I no longer live. It's him living in me. And when we step out of that and we're like, "I'm going to do it my way" -- you know, the song "I Did It My Way," everybody loves it. But it's so unbiblical --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, right.

Hope Carpenter: -- you know, that we -- this life is not our own, and we only live when we die.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know, Hope, that reminds me so much as you were describing that -- I've written a Bible study on the Book of Hosea. And what you just described reminds me so much of Gomer. For those listening who don't know, she was Hosea's wife. He was, for all practical purposes, a preacher. And she basically was into her way, her will. She had had a probably terrible upbringing, exposed to things that a girl should have never been exposed to. She had an appetite to get her needs met in ways that were sinful and she wandered away from the man who loved her. And we do that with God all the time.

Hope Carpenter: We do.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's what you're describing. Because the appetites aren't necessarily wrong, but they become wrong when we allow sin to be their guide rather than the Holy Spirit.

Hope Carpenter: Absolutely.

Jennifer Rothschild: Because God can meet every longing we have.

Hope Carpenter: Yes, he does. Yes, he does.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So one of the things you talk about in the book -- which I loved -- you write that the devil wants you to pay attention to your feelings and Jesus wants you to pay attention to his truth. So tell us how feelings can be so deceiving. I think you gave us a picture of that a second ago.

Hope Carpenter: Absolutely. You know, our feelings change every day. I tell people even now, I have the best marriage after all that we've been through today. We've been married 31 years this year, and woo-hoo for us.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Hope Carpenter: It's a lost art these days. But I love him more than anything and we have a fantastic marriage, but there are still days I feel like putting a pillow over his head, you know.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Hope Carpenter: There are days I feel like staying in the bed, there are days I feel like eating the entire box of Oreo cookies. But we cannot be led by our feelings. That is so fleshly. The Bible says the flesh leads only to death. It's going to lead us down a road of destruction. And what we feel is not always what is true. I feel sometimes like I'm not worthy. I feel sometimes like I'm not loved. But that's just my feelings. It's not true. So anytime we have a feeling, we have to go to the Word of God as a Christian and say, what is the counter to this feeling? So if we don't know the Word of God, man, we're in trouble. It is our manual. It's a roadmap, it is our guide. The Word of God tells us who we are and what we are and what we're supposed to have, not our feelings.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know, I'm curious, Hope. When you were making these series of small choices that led to some big regrets, were you in the Word?

Hope Carpenter: No.

Jennifer Rothschild: Interesting. Yeah, yeah.

Hope Carpenter: No, absolutely not.

Jennifer Rothschild: It is our guardrail, isn't it?

Hope Carpenter: Isn't it?

Jennifer Rothschild: Mm-hmm. And that's a good reminder to all of us, because sometimes what we -- it's hard to say it's a chicken/egg thing, what comes first, neglecting the Word and making the bad choices or making the bad choices and then choosing to stay out of the Word because you don't want to hear about it.

Hope Carpenter: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm not sure which comes first.

Hope Carpenter: It's convicting. The Word was very convicting to me. I didn't want to hear it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Well, one of the things you wrote in your book was that you cannot be who you're supposed to be and be who you used to be at the same time. I think that's really interesting. I'd love for you to explain that to us.

Hope Carpenter: Well, I believe that who we're supposed to be is always a faith stretch for us. God is always calling us higher. You know, that's what the upward call is. There is no place called "there" in Christianity. We all feel like if we could just get to that place or, you know, live like her or be able to preach like her or do a podcast like her -- you know, that place called "there. If I could just memorize this amount of Scripture. There's no place called "there" that God has called us to. He has called us upward. That is all he's called us to. It's an upward call. Running our race, gaining another step, doing another lap, going toward the upward call that is becoming more like Jesus every single day.

Jennifer Rothschild: You're speaking like a woman who's lived it. And I can only imagine over the years as you -- like you explain, through counseling and therapy. And there had to be a whole lot of healing going on just personally within your relationships. I'm curious how that process was for you, because -- I'm wondering if you had a safety net or if you think you need to get rid of a safety net in order to really find true wholeness.

Hope Carpenter: For me, all the safety nets had to be taken away, because Ron was -- for me. Honestly, I don't know, you know, if our listeners, your listeners, know who we are. That doesn't even matter. But to me, Ron Carpenter is the real deal. He lives what he preaches. He's the most disciplined man that I know. He eats the same five foods every Monday through Friday. He doesn't have a cheat day. He's so disciplined, he really is. I tell people when I grow up, I want to be just like him. He's so kind and he's so giving and he's -- he's just a good man. And so for me, I think I was hanging on to Ron and his relationship with God. And when I came clean with him in 2013 about everything that was going on in my life, he knew some things, but I just had to put it all out on the table. He said, "You have 30 minutes, get out."

Jennifer Rothschild: Ohhh.

Hope Carpenter: Yeah. That was tough. That was tough. And there was nothing else for me. I had no money, I had no job, I had no bank account, I had no credit cards, I had no car, I had no cell phone. I had nothing. And for me -- that's why I wrote the book. That's why I named it what I named it: "The Most Beautiful Disaster." Because to the world -- you know, our story went worldwide. To the world, it was the most horrible thing that could have happened. But, Jennifer, to me, it was the most beautiful thing that could have ever happened to me, because I had nothing but Jesus.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah.

Hope Carpenter: I was 100% completely dependent on him for my next breath. I had no hope of ever being used again by God, I had no hope of my marriage ever being restored, I had no hope of holding a microphone or anybody wanting to hear anything I had to say. But I remember praying this one prayer. I said, "Jesus, if you don't give me any of that back, I just want you to heal me." And that started the most beautiful journey for me. Everything was gone and all I had was me and Jesus.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow. That is a difficult beautiful place to be, because it really is what your only need was all along.

Hope Carpenter: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. So I'm grateful that you're on this side of it, and obviously there's incredible restoration. So I'm curious how you would advise some practical ways that -- people who are in a broken relationship right now, what can they do to restore, and how do you know when it's just really out of your control?

Hope Carpenter: Wow, that's a great question. I think the only thing you can do is focus on you, you and Jesus, you and Jesus. Because you can't fix anybody really.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Hope Carpenter: You can't fix anybody other than yourself.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Hope Carpenter: And so, man, if you can just focus on you, fix you, be the best you that you can be, and don't worry about -- just give it to God. Give it to God. I prayed for my husband. I prayed, I fasted, because for weeks and weeks he was not relenting that -- you know, he did not want to restore our marriage because being married to me was so painful for so many years, for nine years. And he had a worldwide ministry to manage, he had our family to manage, and he couldn't trust me. And it took a lot of time to rebuild trust. And, man, trust is so hard to gain and so easy to break.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Hope Carpenter: And it took a long time. It took a really long time for us to be restored, to walk through healing. You know, we all want the quick, we want the easy, we want the instant. We're like, "I said I'm sorry. Why can't you just forgive me?" And that is not how forgiveness -- it is how forgiveness works, but it's not how trust works.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's a good distinction. As I'm listening to you, too, I would love for you to address how humility played into this as far as you personally, for Ron, for your marriage. How did humility impact this process?

Hope Carpenter: Oh, wow. It was devastating, Jennifer. It was -- wow. I remember -- the place I went was Living Waters Ministry in North Carolina. It's just a slice of heaven. They've helped thousands and thousands of people heal through various things. But I remember going there, and that's where I lived for nine months while we were separated. And I laugh and talk about it now, but that's the place we sent the other crazy people to in the church. All the other broken people, you know, the island of broken people, like we try to make a distinction. But we're all broken.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Hope Carpenter: So I went there because I knew them and I trusted them. But I remember they called off all of their retreats and everything to just really focus on me for six weeks. And when they opened their retreats back up, I was the cook.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Hope Carpenter: I was the one cleaning up and changing bedsheets for people. Now, mind you, I'm 44 years old, you know, and had a full staff of 200 people and a full-time housekeeper, you know, and here I am, I'm the cook and I'm the cleaner. And I remember the first retreat they opened back up and I had to go to the front door and open it and welcome the people in, and it was two members of my church.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ohhh.

Hope Carpenter: And they were like, "Uhh." Because no one knew where I was. We were still separated; Ron had already filed for divorce. And they're like, "Ahh, Pastor Hope." And they just grabbed me and hugged me and we both cried. But I remember just the having to swallow so hard. And I'm the one bringing the plates to them and serving them and picking their plates up and washing their dirty dishes and serving the people who had looked up to me for years and years. And so I believe that God does use things to humble us. You know, he said this in Scripture. He said, "Humble yourself under God's mighty hand so that he can raise you up." And if we are not willing to humble ourselves, I can promise you God will use all kinds of situations and circumstances to make sure we know who we are, that it's not about us, that God gets all the glory. And, you know, that was a hard lesson and a hard thing for me to go through, but I'm so grateful for it today.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I just met you, and I hate what you've been through, but I'm so grateful also because what a gift it is to the body of Christ. What another picture of us to see God's grace in motion --

Hope Carpenter: Amen.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and how his story -- when he's writing our story, I mean, he does work all things together for good. And there is glory in your story, Hope, and it gives everyone else hope. All right, sister girl, here is my last question. What does true freedom for Hope Carpenter look like now?

Hope Carpenter: Wow. My true freedom is every single day I wake up, I remember those -- that's why I wrote the book, that's why I talk about it, is because I remember it. The Bible says we overcome by what -- the blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony. This is so fresh to me, because true freedom to me now is that God uses all of the junk in our life for his glory and, for the salvation of many. He wants to use the good, the bad, the ugly, every single bit of it, so that he can get the glory, so that we can take other people and pull them out of darkness into light, grab them by the shoulders and say, "No matter what it is you're going through, no matter how dark it looks and how hard it is, you can get through this." This is what freedom is to me, is bringing other people out by telling my story.

K.C. Wright: Amen and amen. True freedom is that God uses all of our junk in our lives for his glory.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

K.C. Wright: He can take our testimony -- he can take our monies and turn them into a testimony, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, that's good. 'Cause we got some monies out there.

K.C. Wright: That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: You do. I really appreciated her honesty. And just in case her story was painful to you, because maybe you could identify with some of it a little too much, please reach out and let somebody help you find healing. And if you need to reach out because of any kind of sexual abuse or rape, please do so. We're going to have a link to the hotline for that on our show notes at 413podcast.com/178.

K.C. Wright: Her book is not just an interesting story, it is a resource, because we've all made mistakes we greatly regret. So if you want a copy, we will have that link at the show notes at 413podcast.com/178. And you can also win one right now at Jennifer's Instagram.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yep.

K.C. Wright: Go to @jennrothchild. That's where you'll find her on Instagram. Or, of course, we will link you there on the show notes as well.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yep, everything you need on the show notes. All right, dear one, it's a wrap for today. So until next week, remember that whatever you face, however you feel, you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

K.C. Wright: I can.

Jennifer and K.C.: And you can.

K.C. Wright: True story. Be encouraged.

Jennifer Rothschild: Be encouraged.

K.C. Wright: God's got you.

Jennifer Rothschild: God's got you. I'm repeating everything K.C. says because I have run out of original thought.

K.C. Wright: More coffee.

Jennifer Rothschild: More coffee. You're amazing. Did you forget it? Yes, I forgot it.